"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

It took me longer to get to where I wanted to be with my identity. I had no butch mentor. I didn't feel fluid. I felt quite isolated from how my circle of friends were. They mostly identified as lesbian, tweener, androgynous, gender neutral, and on. At the time, the only butch-femme dynamic that was visible to me were the rarely seen older couple. I wondered then if I was outdated before I had a chance to discover myself and 'be'.

I have thought more on Selenay's post and with the help of others that have done a better job of listening and responding to it, I think I grasp what she is saying. Out of curiosity, I would like to see where the generational evolution of human/sexuality/identities flows to. I think what is now called butch-femme will still navigate it's own river. Just as strong as it was and is.

Kosmo

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

For some it's important. Whether it's just a preference or whether it's a way to self-describe. I don't think it's as much of an "uproar" as much as a desire to understand different points of view.

To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) )

So what would be a "modern" term for femme?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Good point uproar might not have been the best word to use, but I understand where you are coming from as well

I too as Linus asked would like to hear the concepts for the femme term

[Unndunn]

I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.

As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them.

I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject).

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Unndunn

I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.

As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them.

I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject).

Your take on 'butch' brought back some memories. In the early 90's I didn't have a personal computer so I would grab the local gay newspaper and browse the personals. I could count on one hand how many times I saw femme looking for butch (usually one or two and usually seeking soft butch). Never was sure what that meant. Anyway, it was usually: femme seeking femme or specific in 'no butches please', so I knew we were out there. So what was wrong with us?

I always came away feeling less than after reading those personals. I just didn't think I would find anyone that was my compliment. Then one time I saw one, femme seeks butch. I found her! The only femme seeking butch in the world! lol. Then I thought, great, there's gonna be at least 100 butches practicing their best introduction message (yep, I was one of them, *chuckles*). Seems like a lifetime ago.

Just for curiosity sake, I went online to the same newspaper and into their personals section. Wasn't much there; only 7 (more online communities now).

None looking for butch, but 3 were butch: 2 soft butch and 1 'more tomboy' than butch. 2 of them were seeking femme. I wonder how it is in different parts of the country. I'll have to take a look at some of those online services to see how the descriptives are used.

It makes for an interesting social study

[Isadora]

... the whole discussion brings up issues and fears for me cause I have already been through this once in the 70's during the feminist era when I was called a "pawn of the patriarchy" and "copying heterosexual relationships".

The pressure then was no labels. The ugliness of either be andro or you are not welcome in our community and I mean we were ostracized, was sometimes violent. Ever have an angry feminist lesbian pull your hair (too long and girly), push you down and take your heels and throw them, or take your lipstick and write all over your face? I heard in 1970's "butch/femme is dead and old." All these things happened.

Those of us who lived through it know that to see it come around again seems dismissive and hurtful all over again. To write us off as too boxed in is unfair and truly offensive. Gender queer works for some, but to say it is more label free or more andro, and imply that it is better and younger and m ore hip, dismisses my history, dismisses me as a vital person in the universe. There is not, for me, a better form of self description.

Being ridiculed for being femme or butch and appreciating those descriptors was the norm in the 70's. I published and article about 10 years back about this part of the b/f past, one butch said "Everyone wanted to fuck me but they wouldn't walk down the street with me the next morning. No one would talk to me at meetings. I would walk in and there would be a dead silence."

As I said in my first post, I find it very interesting that the discussion is about the alternative terms for butch and none for femme. I agree with Unndunn, about femme invisibility. I, also believe that butch/femme is part of the queer paradigm. For me, a person who is not queer/gay/lesbian/dyke/transensual is not femme, she can be feminine but not femme. Besides, I don't want to change my descriptor.

*sits back and waits for it*

Then too, I heard b/f is dead or dying. Still here. Still alive. Still kickin!

[Darth Denkay]

Hey Kosmo,

You mention that this would make for an interesting social study - there's at least one such study out there that addressing this topic.

The reference is

Smith, C. S., & Stillman, S. (2002). Butch/Femme in the personal advertisements of lesbians. Journal of Lesbian Studies, 6, 45-51.

Here's a summary of the results:

• 75% of the ads did not self-identify as femme or butch
• 14% self-identified as femme and 11% as butch
• 66% did not mention femme or butch in terms of who they sought
• In the ads that specified seeking femme or butch, 26% sought femme and 5% butch, with a few explicitly indicating "no butches"
• Those who self-identified as femme sought femme partners 56% versus butch partners 18% (the remaining 26% did not specify)
• 10% of those who did not identify as butch or femme specified wanting a femme partner; none specified wanting a butch partner
• Of those who self-identified as butch requested femme partners 74% and butch partners 7%

Like you, when I used to read personal ads in gay/lesbian papers I always ended up pissed off. Rarely did anyone specify looking for a butch, and it seemed like many folks specifically stated no butches. At this point I didn't have a butch-femme community so basically figured there was no one out there who wanted a butch. When I became involved in my first online-community and found folks who actually wanted folks like me - well, I can't really even describe the relief I felt.

-Wicket

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Your take on 'butch' brought back some memories. In the early 90's I didn't have a personal computer so I would grab the local gay newspaper and browse the personals. I could count on one hand how many times I saw femme looking for butch (usually one or two and usually seeking soft butch). Never was sure what that meant. Anyway, it was usually: femme seeking femme or specific in 'no butches please', so I knew we were out there. So what was wrong with us?

I always came away feeling less than after reading those personals. I just didn't think I would find anyone that was my compliment. Then one time I saw one, femme seeks butch. I found her! The only femme seeking butch in the world! lol. Then I thought, great, there's gonna be at least 100 butches practicing their best introduction message (yep, I was one of them, *chuckles*). Seems like a lifetime ago.

Just for curiosity sake, I went online to the same newspaper and into their personals section. Wasn't much there; only 7 (more online communities now).

None looking for butch, but 3 were butch: 2 soft butch and 1 'more tomboy' than butch. 2 of them were seeking femme. I wonder how it is in different parts of the country. I'll have to take a look at some of those online services to see how the descriptives are used.

It makes for an interesting social study

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Linus

For some it's important. Whether it's just a preference or whether it's a way to self-describe. I don't think it's as much of an "uproar" as much as a desire to understand different points of view.

To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) )

So what would be a "modern" term for femme?

Linus,

Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke?

Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke).

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Linus,

Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke?

Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke).

Stud and Aggressive are the other "butch" variants I thought. A few others were also mentioned in the thread.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Linus

Stud and Aggressive are the other "butch" variants I thought. A few others were also mentioned in the thread.

Thanks Linus,

I'll have to search the thread to find them all. I've never heard of Aggressive, but I don't get out much, lol.

[Jess]

This topic has had me doing a good deal of reading again. This is a link to an exciting project that tells me the dynamic is still alive and well and embracing folks of all ages.

http://www.apersistentdesire.com/index.html

[Jess]

A couple of other noteworthy films...

The Aggressives and My Femme Divine.. both document different views on the butch/ femme dynamic.