Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[Martina]

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me. If someone is attracted to you, even if you aren't to them, that is a compliment, a sweet thing.

If a transguy wants to date women who date cismen, i get it. That's fine. Going out of his way to criticize a woman who is not interested in cismen but may be in him or another transguy -- i don't get it. It's unnecessary.

The implication is that your identity as a man is dependent on, or at least can be affected by, the kind of attention you receive from women or the kind of women you receive attention from.

As a girl, i was certainly taught that my identity as a woman was dependent on the attentions of men, but i outgrew that.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me. If someone is attracted to you, even if you aren't to them, that is a compliment, a sweet thing.

If a transguy wants to date women who date cismen, i get it. That's fine. Going out of his way to criticize a woman who is not interested in cismen but may be in him or another transguy -- i don't get it. It's unnecessary.

The implication is that your identity as a man is dependent on, or at least can be affected by, the kind of attention you receive from women or the kind of women you receive attention from.

As a girl, i was certainly taught that my identity as a woman was dependent on the attentions of men, but i outgrew that.

And if I say, "I'm attracted to you, because I see you as a straight woman", am I attracted to YOU or some picture of you I'VE created?

If you keep saying, "Um, I'm not straight", but I keep saying, "Oh yeah, queer, lesbian, straight, whatever"...is that being attracted to YOU or some picture I've created?


Dylan

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

From the other thread:

Originally Posted by betenoire

I know this is unpopular opinion, and it's really none of my business who other people date...but it strikes me as icky when someone will date an FTM but not a non-trans man. Like, TO ME, that insinuates that they don't fully acknowledge their lovers sex/gender.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

From the other thread:

Ok, Bulldog (since you're now speaking for Martina), then why are men being blamed for something Potty said


And Why Are You Speaking For So Many Folks Except The Female Butch Contingency...or yourself?,
Dylan...also wonders why you're specifically avoiding answering Potty's questions to you about your own words, and why you're using deflection by mixing up other people's words

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Ok, Bulldog (since you're now speaking for Martina), then why are men being blamed for something Potty said


And Why Are You Speaking For So Many Folks Except The Female Butch Contingency...or yourself?,
Dylan...also wonders why you're specifically avoiding answering Potty's questions to you about your own words, and why you're using deflection by mixing up other people's words

I'm not speaking for Martina. I agreed with what she said earlier. You asked where someone had been criticized anyone for not dating non-trans. I provided the quote.

What precisely am I avoiding answering. I've answered very directly. I am not mixing up anyone's words.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm not speaking for Martina. I agreed with what she said earlier. You asked where someone had been criticized anyone for not dating non-trans. I provided the quote.

What precisely am I avoiding answering. I've answered very directly. I am not mixing up anyone's words.

Martina said a man had said it

It's in her post (which I quoted)


You Didn't Answer Directly...You Backpeddled And Waffled. And Yeah, You Are Mixing Up Other People's Words To Better Fit Some Conversation You WISH Folks Were Having (or something),
Dylan...isn't going to rehash all of Potty's posts again, so we can go around in the inevitable circle of avoidance and deflection

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina said a man had said it

It's in her post (which I quoted)


You Didn't Answer Directly...You Backpeddled And Waffled. And Yeah, You Are Mixing Up Other People's Words To Better Fit Some Conversation You WISH Folks Were Having (or something),
Dylan...isn't going to rehash all of Potty's posts again, so we can go around in the inevitable circle of avoidance and deflection

I haven't back peddled, waffled, deflected or avoided anything. Whatever Dylan. The things you are saying about me are absurd. Have your conversation.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

i was responding to some stuff in the bulldog/betenoire interaction. It was implied. i don't know. Too tired to track it down.

Re what you said otherwise, that would be unacceptable. Are a lot of femmes out there insisting that their trans partners or dates are TRANS rather than men? Is that what you are saying? i get lost sometimes with the hypotheticals.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

i was responding to some stuff in the bulldog/betenoire interaction. It was implied. i don't know. Too tired to track it down.

Re what you said otherwise, that would be unacceptable. Are a lot of femmes out there insisting that their trans partners or dates are TRANS rather than men? Is that what you are saying? i get lost sometimes with the hypotheticals.

Thanks for the clarification

I DO see a lot of the insistent 'trans'-ing, and overdoing the "My partner is FTM". Like, instead of just saying, "I'm with a man" or "I dated a guy once", it's "I was with a TRANSguy once..." or "I date a lot of FTMs" etc. Like, it's not sufficient to just say, "I'm with a man" or "I'm with a guy".

In some cases, I get the impression it's a way of outing oneself/queering oneself (and I see this in real time, so that's why I'm wondering if online it's the same reasoning). What I see in real time is this 'Chosen Closet'. Like...today, I want to be in the closet, so I'm with a guy...but tomorrow, when we go to SuchASuchPlace, I want to be outed, so I'm with a TRANNNNNSguy" (said like annoying people who say, "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadies") instead of just owning that the responsibility is One's own to out themselves. It's kind of like using someone else to do your 'dirty work' (if coming out can be considered 'dirty work')...like (and I'm saying 'like' wayyyy too much), if I out YOU, then I don't have to take responsibility for outing ME. Does that make sense?

And in some cases, I wonder if repeating the TRANSman mantra over and over is some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away...Seeeeeeeeeeeee he's not a man man...he's a TRANNNNNNNSman'...and I wonder this, because I tend to see this particular behavior more online than I do in real time. I don't see the over usage of TRANSman the way I do online. I hear partners just say, "My boyfriend/guy/he/etc". No one in my real time circle of friends over uses trans to the extent I see online.

I don't know if that makes sense, because this conversation in this particular thread is missing a lot, because some posts are missing from the original conversation, and some posts are taken without the context of the original conversation.

And yeah, I've known (of) some people who insist their guy is 'formerly female' or who see their guy as (formerly) female first...then trans. Again, their partner(s) is/are expected to be female when it's convenient and male when it's convenient, but it doesn't seem up to the guy...it's up to the partner and the partner's situation. Again, I have no idea how the actual guy(s) feel about this, because I don't really talk to these people, I just know what I see/hear.


Dylan

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Thanks for the clarification

I DO see a lot of the insistent 'trans'-ing, and overdoing the "My partner is FTM". Like, instead of just saying, "I'm with a man" or "I dated a guy once", it's "I was with a TRANSguy once..." or "I date a lot of FTMs" etc. Like, it's not sufficient to just say, "I'm with a man" or "I'm with a guy".

In some cases, I get the impression it's a way of outing oneself/queering oneself (and I see this in real time, so that's why I'm wondering if online it's the same reasoning). What I see in real time is this 'Chosen Closet'. Like...today, I want to be in the closet, so I'm with a guy...but tomorrow, when we go to SuchASuchPlace, I want to be outed, so I'm with a TRANNNNNSguy" (said like annoying people who say, "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadies") instead of just owning that the responsibility is One's own to out themselves. It's kind of like using someone else to do your 'dirty work' (if coming out can be considered 'dirty work')...like (and I'm saying 'like' wayyyy too much), if I out YOU, then I don't have to take responsibility for outing ME. Does that make sense?

And in some cases, I wonder if repeating the TRANSman mantra over and over is some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away...Seeeeeeeeeeeee he's not a man man...he's a TRANNNNNNNSman'...and I wonder this, because I tend to see this particular behavior more online than I do in real time. I don't see the over usage of TRANSman the way I do online. I hear partners just say, "My boyfriend/guy/he/etc". No one in my real time circle of friends over uses trans to the extent I see online.

I don't know if that makes sense, because this conversation in this particular thread is missing a lot, because some posts are missing from the original conversation, and some posts are taken without the context of the original conversation.

And yeah, I've known (of) some people who insist their guy is 'formerly female' or who see their guy as (formerly) female first...then trans. Again, their partner(s) is/are expected to be female when it's convenient and male when it's convenient, but it doesn't seem up to the guy...it's up to the partner and the partner's situation. Again, I have no idea how the actual guy(s) feel about this, because I don't really talk to these people, I just know what I see/hear.


Dylan

Interesting. i can sympathize with some of it. It's not so much fun being invisible, and dating a transguy makes that more invisible. i guess one can find a way of coming out as a queer femme or dyke or whatever one is without mentioning the gender of who you are with.

But in general i am uncomfortable with talking about how femmes are not doing it right somehow. i don't know.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Thanks for the clarification

I DO see a lot of the insistent 'trans'-ing, and overdoing the "My partner is FTM". Like, instead of just saying, "I'm with a man" or "I dated a guy once", it's "I was with a TRANSguy once..." or "I date a lot of FTMs" etc. Like, it's not sufficient to just say, "I'm with a man" or "I'm with a guy".

In some cases, I get the impression it's a way of outing oneself/queering oneself (and I see this in real time, so that's why I'm wondering if online it's the same reasoning). What I see in real time is this 'Chosen Closet'. Like...today, I want to be in the closet, so I'm with a guy...but tomorrow, when we go to SuchASuchPlace, I want to be outed, so I'm with a TRANNNNNSguy" (said like annoying people who say, "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadies") instead of just owning that the responsibility is One's own to out themselves. It's kind of like using someone else to do your 'dirty work' (if coming out can be considered 'dirty work')...like (and I'm saying 'like' wayyyy too much), if I out YOU, then I don't have to take responsibility for outing ME. Does that make sense?

And in some cases, I wonder if repeating the TRANSman mantra over and over is some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away...Seeeeeeeeeeeee he's not a man man...he's a TRANNNNNNNSman'...and I wonder this, because I tend to see this particular behavior more online than I do in real time. I don't see the over usage of TRANSman the way I do online. I hear partners just say, "My boyfriend/guy/he/etc". No one in my real time circle of friends over uses trans to the extent I see online.

I don't know if that makes sense, because this conversation in this particular thread is missing a lot, because some posts are missing from the original conversation, and some posts are taken without the context of the original conversation.

And yeah, I've known (of) some people who insist their guy is 'formerly female' or who see their guy as (formerly) female first...then trans. Again, their partner(s) is/are expected to be female when it's convenient and male when it's convenient, but it doesn't seem up to the guy...it's up to the partner and the partner's situation. Again, I have no idea how the actual guy(s) feel about this, because I don't really talk to these people, I just know what I see/hear.


Dylan

You know, as I read this, I have to say that it fits with my experience in terms of Transmen I know in real-time as opposed to online. But, I really don't have a lot of on-line experience overall. The old site (which I no longer participate on) and this one are the only ones I have ever actually joined. I have a FB account, but that is for keeping up with people in my life that don't live near me. there are some people there that I met via this community both on and off-line. Some are trans (both FtM's & MtF's).

I don't hear this continual referral to the used to be a woman in real-time in either the queer or straight (as they prefer to call themselves) couples I do real-time interaction with. Could this just be because I know their history and they know I know their history? Is it related to my not being trans?

Something else I can think of is that by and large it is the FtM's (or MtF's) I know personally that use Transman or just trans to describe themselves except for the 2 I have known since childhood (so they are very much of a different generation than a lot of transpeople here and do mot identify as queer). My inter-gendered, female identified cousin just calls herself a woman, however (again, she is in her mid 70's).

I have had conversations with femmes and dated a few that do bring up dating transmen and unfortunately, they are often negative about this. Which, I guess is why they are dating me perhaps (who knows)! It might be that our community actually has grown in that trans comes up more freely due to more awareness.

It does feel like that online, the trans distinction is often made by femmes. But, it could simply be, again, about awareness and also trying to be inclusive as trans issues are interwoven on the site. And transmen here usually identify themselves as trans in their profile- they don't usually put Man or male in the blank to the left! Probably because this is a B-F queer site.

In terms of outing, I think that is up to the Transperson and how they want to handle it. I would hope that this would be respected. What you say about this being due to some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away... motivation is quite disturbing and I think goes to the dissing of femmes that date/partner with transmen.

All that being said, I feel like I can't generalize about this because I haven't read every single post on every single thread. Also, I don't know about your experience as a Transman and mine as a butch woman play into it.

Do most transmen want to just be referred to as men and not trans? Do they want their past as a woman to be hidden? It seems that many transmen here want this to be discussed because many know that there could be butches struggling with gender issues that need to feel OK about asking them questions about their experience.

I think I am in a state of puzzlement at the moment.... but this is an interesting discussion, but I am wondering about individual differences among transmen about it all.

I am also wondering about the formerly-female situation and the fact that most transmen have never been female, actually. I am speaking to those that did indeed feel that they were in the wrong body, and always felt/knew they were male. I would think that to be referred to as formally-female here, would be quite disturbing to the individual.