Ask a trans person!

[Vivacious1]

what if it is just casual dating?

The reason that I am curious is, that I know some folks that date and don't disclose... what if it gets serious, would that be considered deception?

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Vivacious1

what if it is just casual dating?

The reason that I am curious is, that I know some folks that date and don't disclose... what if it gets serious, would that be considered deception?

Yes honesty is above everything else.. I would never be with someone I couldn't be with.. maybe that person is just uncomfortable talking about it? But it needs to be talked about.. weather it is casual or serious

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Vivacious1

what if it is just casual dating?

The reason that I am curious is, that I know some folks that date and don't disclose... what if it gets serious, would that be considered deception?

i would want to know right up front.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Vivacious1

I found this thread very interesting as well. I can relate to some, and some makes me have more questions.

I too was in a relationship with an FTM... He transitioned very shortly after we got together. It was a whirlwind experience for me, scary as well... confusing.. etc

I supported him through his top surgery which scared the crap outta me because I had to take care of him in the hotel after surgery, tubes and drains everywhere... Of course I messed it up, and he had to have a revision... BAD way to start a relationship...

The things I experienced with him was an excess of anger and blame, always to be put off by saying its the *T*

Then there was the group of friends that were also trans men and the comments such as *I can't believe you still ID as lesbian" I felt that they thought there was something wrong with me!!!!

Fast forward, eventually when we broke up, the comment was, * I shoulda stayed butch and you wouldn't be leaving*

Unfortunately, I think I got a lot of messages that weren't correct and maybe specific to this relationship, but, regardless, I was left feeling it was all about the trans man, and what about the femme on the other side? I was a femme, I was lost in this process of someone else's transition...

So, I guess with all this said, I am looking for clarity.. I am looking for someone that relates... maybe from the FTM side or the femme side!!!!

When trans people are medically transitioning, their partners are transitioning, as well. They get lost in their partners' transition, and that isn't fair. A good gender therapist will think about the trans person's partner, and other family members, too. There are a handful support groups on FB for partners of trans people.
One partner's gender identity/sexual orientation should not define the other person's. There is nothing wrong with identifying as lesbian when you are with a trans man. People identify as lesbian and date cis, straight men.
T is a bullshit excuse. Trans men don't get a pass on learning to manage this agitating-type hormone any more than cis men do.
Unless it is something super obvious, I suspect his need for revision had nothing to do with your care. Many, many guys need revisions after top surgery.

Originally Posted by Vivacious1

While reading the past few post, I had another question come up for whoever wants to answer...
I have personally know several trans men that felt it was not important to share their transition with women that they dated... Wondering what others think on this????

Are you talking about trans men who are moving through society as male? Are you talking about when they are dating in the heterosexual community?

I am asking because the other poster was talking about trans guys who are pre-T, and if she it is rude to ask masculine looking females if they identify as butch or trans/ a combo of both.

These are two different topics, in my mind.

Originally Posted by Vivacious1

what if it is just casual dating?

The reason that I am curious is, that I know some folks that date and don't disclose... what if it gets serious, would that be considered deception?

Same as above.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

One partner's gender identity/sexual orientation should not define the other person's. There is nothing wrong with identifying as lesbian when you are with a trans man. People identify as lesbian and date cis, straight men.

Wow. As a lesbian, I can tell you that negates the very essence of who we are.

It is also derogating, insulting and demeaning.

[BullDog]

Kobi, I really hope you are just speaking for yourself because there are plenty of lesbians that don't share your views, and there are lesbians who do date trans men and they still identify as lesbians.

[Gemme]

Word, Bully.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Kobi, I really hope you are just speaking for yourself because there are plenty of lesbians that don't share your views, and there are lesbians who do date trans men and they still identify as lesbians.

AGREED!!!! Couldnt have said it better Myself...

[Kobi]

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq... so you are saying in your eyes ftm and people Like Me Queer Middle sexed people should not be here??? That's the very definition of homophobia... and non acceptance of every flavor of Our big rainbow... Not every lesbian is just a simple butch or femme... there are many spectrums... the lesbian community lacks acceptance of things other than the cookie cutter "lesbian "... makes Me very sad

[BullDog]

Kobi, I find your transphobia mind boggling.

First of all, how is your life, identity, sexuality, sexual orientation, gender identity or anything else defined by someone else's dating choices?

Another lesbian's dating life doesn't define me or anyone else.

And who you date does not define who you are either. If I ended up dating someone who didn't id as femme that wouldn't mean I wasn't butch all of a sudden.

A lesbian can date another lesbian, another woman who doesn't id as lesbian, someone gender queer, a trans man, a cis man, etc. She may very still see herself as a lesbian because that is how she has id'd for a long time and it didn't suddenly change just because she is dating someone of a different id than she did before.

Being a lesbian is not just about who you sleep with. There are community and social ties, your own personal history, your own sense of how you identify and a whole host of other factors that go into it.

You only get to define lesbian for you Kobi.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

I'm asking for myself, not anyone else. Do you see or define lesbian as 2 cis gendered women in an adult relationship?

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

Ummm by your definition this is a lesbian site not a queer site.. I don't understand why people have to worry about others bedrooms? Also by your definition STONE BUTCHES would not be lesbians either... so confused who qualifies... In the end your view and the views of other who may share this view dont dictate who others love or their identity... More love in this world and acceptance is what the world truely needs

[Vivacious1]

The anger expressed earlier with identity issues is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post. These are the responses I got when I dated a trans man. I cannot speak for others, but it is hurtful and closed minded and makes me feel quite uncomfortable.

[Vivacious1]

Hey Dapper!
Thanks for your thoughts.
Unfortunately, when I was going through the surgery with my ex, I was naïve at best. I supported him fully with his transition, but honestly had no idea what I was really getting involved with. I wish we would have seen a therapist!!!! I guess the point was that I was overwhelmed by the responsibility of his care after surgery

As far as my other questions, I am talking about a Trans man dating any female. (straight or gay) I have had this conversation with trans men and several felt that it was their right to not disclose transitioning. So, in essence their date is blind to the whole story... what if it goes further???? what if they end up making out???? Is that fair? Or is the date an ass because when they get to that point of making out, she is not ok with either the fact he is trans or the fact that he wasn't honest???

Hope that cleared it up

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

(Chuckle) you've no need to apologise to me, m'dear!

I do have a question, actually. Did anyone else - MTF or FTM - initially go for the societal stereotype of how they perceived their correct gender to present, then over time find that that's maybe not the best fit for who they are?

Hi, there. No, my "way of being", male is not out of sync with the other males in my social group/area I live in. I have always been masculine. I am not around any tobacco chewing, crotch grabbing guys which IS a place where I would stand out like a sore thumb.

I know what you are talking about though. Some trans people feel pressure to "fit" that super feminine or super masculine ideal. They worry about "fitting in " for a number of reasons....for example, some trans women might feel they need to fit society's definition of female because they want to prove to themselves they are "real women", or they feel a need to prove to cis folks that they are "real women", or feel a need to "prove" it to other trans women. So they feel they have to be super feminine, exactly what society expects, etc. It is horrid. I think it is more horrid for trans women than for the trans men. And when trans men try to go all super macho (in a way that isn't natural for them), it just makes me chuckle.

I have heard this more than once though. I not super masculine trans guy, or a not so super feminine trans woman, go to the extreme to fit in...eventually they say fuck it! and just become themselves.

What has it been like for you? Seeing that you identify as "tomboy", I assume that means you aren't super girly. Has that been rough? When you first transitioned, did you feel like you had to start out super girly? Were you worried that the UK wouldn't pay for your surgery if you didn't fit the narrative?

Originally Posted by Gemme

I have a question, Dapper.

Did anyone else watch Transformers and wish they would turn into counterparts? Seriously. I used to wish it and everything. I pulled a turkey bone once on it.

I never watched the Transformers. I was too old by the time they came out.
They were cars that changed into robots/super heros/monsters, right? So they were what and you wanted them to turn into what? And the what was then you?

And you pulled a turkey bone on it? That is serious desire dude, you're right.

I've had the same wish at every b-day cake, shooting star, time the clock say 11:11, since I was 16. So, like yeah, I win like everything.

[Esme nha Maire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

What has it been like for you? Seeing that you identify as "tomboy", I assume that means you aren't super girly. Has that been rough? When you first transitioned, did you feel like you had to start out super girly? Were you worried that the UK wouldn't pay for your surgery if you didn't fit the narrative.

Heh. Whilst even back then I was aware that the societal expectation for womens apeparance was a tad more femme than I felt internally, it didn't feel too far off, and I was entirely happy to do the skirt-suit/disco dolly thing. And back then, I associated tomboyism more with childhood and a certain kind of practical-mindedness in adult women. And yes - absolutely I loved that the world finally saw me as one of the girls, which is what I should've been from the start. I know that some going through the system at the time had such worries, and definitely did present as conventional femme in order to obtain surgery, but I was quite happy presenting so, it was what I wanted to be like, back then. It didn't occurr to me back then that that mightve been due to external pressure rather than innate.

This last couple of years have been quite odd for me as well as very happy ones. I'd been wearing my Steampunk plain Edwardian-style skirt-suits at work for a few years, and not unhappy about that specifically (I didnt have anything else I could sensibly wear, and I'm quite pragmatic. Wouldve loved more variety in my wardrobe - I love clothes, but - finances :-( )), but I knew I was in a rut and creeping back into my shell socially - and headed to a bad place mentally if I didnt do something about it.

Roller derby entering my life was a huge game-changer. Not only socially being around a lot of strong minded women determined to do their thing and heck what anyone thought about it (and utterly accepting of me), but the weight I lost in my efforts to get fitter meant my skirt-suits now fell off me. Jeans and cheap tank tops were the quick solution.

Woah. BIG sudden change, and at first it felt uncomfortable, and I did worry a tad that I might be 'read' more often as being MTF in jeans and T-shirt, but after a while it became the new normal, the world didn't end, straight men still annoyingly make passes at me, and I realised that I was feeling pretty comfortable with this image, actually, it better reflected my personality - femme, but with a practical edge, and not always too worried about the niceties or things being just so. It also fit well with my being part of several 'alternative' social scenes (Goth, Steampunk, roller derby), somehow.

Nowadays I feel more one of the laddish girls that can do classic femme when she wants to - and does, but not often, and am quite happy thus. I was startled my first couple of times on the lesbian scene when both times someone presumed I was butch. No idea why, I didnt get chance to ask, but I suspect it was because I wasnt in skirts and court shoes, and then there's my sheer size - I'm a big lass. I mentioned this to my boss the other week and she laughed and said 'you're definitely not butch, you're too feminine!' and friends have concurred. Awkward, me... :-}

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I never watched the Transformers. I was too old by the time they came out.
They were cars that changed into robots/super heros/monsters, right? So they were what and you wanted them to turn into what? And the what was then you?

And you pulled a turkey bone on it? That is serious desire dude, you're right.

I've had the same wish at every b-day cake, shooting star, time the clock say 11:11, since I was 16. So, like yeah, I win like everything.

You're never too old for animation. Let's just clear that up right away.



They are (since the movie series is still alive) robots that turn into vehicles of some sort. I wanted them to turn into roboty people. Now that I've progressed a bit in my life, I realize I wanted them to be butch or trans. Actually, trans is perfect, since they did, in fact, transform/transition. It's part of their name and their theme song.



To be fair, I also broke a wishbone on getting my own unicorn, so there's that.

[DapperButch]

Thank you for writing all of this. I appreciate you sharing your history.

As I said before, I am glad that you are here. I would love to have the opportunity to discuss living in the world as a trans person, with other trans people, on this site.

Do you find that trans women are supported in most lesbian specific spaces in your area (both your area specifically, and the UK, in general)? I don't know if you can say this based on your own experience, but I am curious. I would say that in general, trans women are less accepted in all female, lesbian defined spaces in the U.S., than not. It was much worse many years ago, and I like to think that it is getting better, but that might only be happening in the larger cities. All of the trans women I work with who go to lesbian specific spaces say they have not found acceptance. I am in a more liberal state, as well. 98% of my state voted for Clinton.

Knowing you transitioned many years ago, and in the UK is super interesting to me. I have a number of trans guy friends in the UK online, who I met through a UK bottom surgery FB group. I find the UK system of transition interesting as it is so different from ours. Of course, you all have had support (your country pays for your transitions), for eons.

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Heh. Whilst even back then I was aware that the societal expectation for womens apeparance was a tad more femme than I felt internally, it didn't feel too far off, and I was entirely happy to do the skirt-suit/disco dolly thing. And back then, I associated tomboyism more with childhood and a certain kind of practical-mindedness in adult women. And yes - absolutely I loved that the world finally saw me as one of the girls, which is what I should've been from the start. I know that some going through the system at the time had such worries, and definitely did present as conventional femme in order to obtain surgery, but I was quite happy presenting so, it was what I wanted to be like, back then. It didn't occurr to me back then that that mightve been due to external pressure rather than innate.

This last couple of years have been quite odd for me as well as very happy ones. I'd been wearing my Steampunk plain Edwardian-style skirt-suits at work for a few years, and not unhappy about that specifically (I didnt have anything else I could sensibly wear, and I'm quite pragmatic. Wouldve loved more variety in my wardrobe - I love clothes, but - finances :-( )), but I knew I was in a rut and creeping back into my shell socially - and headed to a bad place mentally if I didnt do something about it.

Roller derby entering my life was a huge game-changer. Not only socially being around a lot of strong minded women determined to do their thing and heck what anyone thought about it (and utterly accepting of me), but the weight I lost in my efforts to get fitter meant my skirt-suits now fell off me. Jeans and cheap tank tops were the quick solution.

Woah. BIG sudden change, and at first it felt uncomfortable, and I did worry a tad that I might be 'read' more often as being MTF in jeans and T-shirt, but after a while it became the new normal, the world didn't end, straight men still annoyingly make passes at me, and I realised that I was feeling pretty comfortable with this image, actually, it better reflected my personality - femme, but with a practical edge, and not always too worried about the niceties or things being just so. It also fit well with my being part of several 'alternative' social scenes (Goth, Steampunk, roller derby), somehow.

Nowadays I feel more one of the laddish girls that can do classic femme when she wants to - and does, but not often, and am quite happy thus. I was startled my first couple of times on the lesbian scene when both times someone presumed I was butch. No idea why, I didnt get chance to ask, but I suspect it was because I wasnt in skirts and court shoes, and then there's my sheer size - I'm a big lass. I mentioned this to my boss the other week and she laughed and said 'you're definitely not butch, you're too feminine!' and friends have concurred. Awkward, me... :-}

[Esme nha Maire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Thank you for writing all of this. I appreciate you sharing your history.

As I said before, I am glad that you are here. I would love to have the opportunity to discuss living in the world as a trans person, with other trans people, on this site.

Do you find that trans women are supported in most lesbian specific spaces in your area (both your area specifically, and the UK, in general)? I don't know if you can say this based on your own experience, but I am curious. .

I'm happy to discuss that, Dapper, either here or elsewhere if it needs a different thread.

As for trans women being supported in lesbian-specific places in the UK, first a caveat - I am not on social media, I'm a refusenik. There almost certainly will be stuff 'out there' that I am not aware of. One of the things I've just been venting about is the fact that here I am in the UK's second largest city, and there is one lesbian-focused bar (and it's tiny) and two places where lesbians are often found, so far as I'm aware of at this point. And there are NO women-only nights in any of them. I'm guessing that locally women connect online first so there's less of the going to somehwere to find a date thing going on.

The twice I have been on the scene that ther'es actually been wall-to-wall women in our lesbian-centric bar, I felt no edge from anybody at all. I would say utter general social acceptance. Of course, that's not the same as saying that they'd all be happy to bed me, but then, I wouldn't have wanted to bed all of them, either. We all have our preferences :-}

At LFest - which has a firm no discrimination policy - much the same. Indeed, although I fluffed the situations through dithering due to introversion and nervousness, I did get some positive interest from a couple of lasses, which was a bit of a surprise to me. Being effectively a babydyke, introvert and recovering from years of self-policing due to fear of rejection as female, I told myself beforehand to not get my hopes up, and be realistic with my expectations. Seems my expectations were too low!

Contrast this with nearly thirty years back in my much smaller original hometown, and the utter rejection I got by the local lesbian support group. No-one was off with me at the local gay/lesbian disco when I attended, but the women barely interacted with me at all, although one did shamefacedly say 'we do think you're pretty though' as if that were a consolation prize. Well gee thanks, but having to deal with being lesbian on top of being MTF and telling me I'm pretty but cold-shouldering me.. yeah. Worst and most hurtful discrimination I've ever experienced. Heterosexual society actually proved to be way more accepting. That incident made me actually scared to go near the lesbian scene again for fear of similar rejection, hence my finally coming to the scene very late in life. I'm happy to say much has changed for the better!

I blame Janice Raymond 's nasty piece of supposedly feminist work for that, though. (I've had to self-censor there - I get a severe attack of the swearies every time I think of her infamous book on transfolk). Those women were in a tough situation at a tough time, and I was one more potential worry, I saw that even at the time. It was the fact that they wouldnt even negotiate some form of compromise that shocked me.

Nearly forgot - the women in the lesbian walking group I'm in - absolutely fine with me.

As for the rest of the UK - well, I've no experience there, and no information other than a few snippets I picked up from chatting at LFest whcih gave me the impression that it's much the same around the country. Sure, there'll be the odd bigot here and there, but in general we're accepted as part of the community, such as it is. Hmmn.. one caveat - it can depend on the individual. I've just recalled that one bunch I chatted with said they'd encountered a couple of transwomen that, from the descriptions of their behaviour given me, I suspect were either poorly socialised as women or just plain boorish in personality anyway. They were sent packing, eventually. I have noticed that some MTFs seem to think that their way of being a woman is THE way, and come on, we're all girls together, this is how to do it - and it sounds incredibly fake, and is in any case, rude, especially when you're the newcomer to a group.