Ask a trans person!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Vivacious1

I found this thread very interesting as well. I can relate to some, and some makes me have more questions.

I too was in a relationship with an FTM... He transitioned very shortly after we got together. It was a whirlwind experience for me, scary as well... confusing.. etc

I supported him through his top surgery which scared the crap outta me because I had to take care of him in the hotel after surgery, tubes and drains everywhere... Of course I messed it up, and he had to have a revision... BAD way to start a relationship...

The things I experienced with him was an excess of anger and blame, always to be put off by saying its the *T*

Then there was the group of friends that were also trans men and the comments such as *I can't believe you still ID as lesbian" I felt that they thought there was something wrong with me!!!!

Fast forward, eventually when we broke up, the comment was, * I shoulda stayed butch and you wouldn't be leaving*

Unfortunately, I think I got a lot of messages that weren't correct and maybe specific to this relationship, but, regardless, I was left feeling it was all about the trans man, and what about the femme on the other side? I was a femme, I was lost in this process of someone else's transition...

So, I guess with all this said, I am looking for clarity.. I am looking for someone that relates... maybe from the FTM side or the femme side!!!!

When trans people are medically transitioning, their partners are transitioning, as well. They get lost in their partners' transition, and that isn't fair. A good gender therapist will think about the trans person's partner, and other family members, too. There are a handful support groups on FB for partners of trans people.
One partner's gender identity/sexual orientation should not define the other person's. There is nothing wrong with identifying as lesbian when you are with a trans man. People identify as lesbian and date cis, straight men.
T is a bullshit excuse. Trans men don't get a pass on learning to manage this agitating-type hormone any more than cis men do.
Unless it is something super obvious, I suspect his need for revision had nothing to do with your care. Many, many guys need revisions after top surgery.

Originally Posted by Vivacious1

While reading the past few post, I had another question come up for whoever wants to answer...
I have personally know several trans men that felt it was not important to share their transition with women that they dated... Wondering what others think on this????

Are you talking about trans men who are moving through society as male? Are you talking about when they are dating in the heterosexual community?

I am asking because the other poster was talking about trans guys who are pre-T, and if she it is rude to ask masculine looking females if they identify as butch or trans/ a combo of both.

These are two different topics, in my mind.

Originally Posted by Vivacious1

what if it is just casual dating?

The reason that I am curious is, that I know some folks that date and don't disclose... what if it gets serious, would that be considered deception?

Same as above.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

One partner's gender identity/sexual orientation should not define the other person's. There is nothing wrong with identifying as lesbian when you are with a trans man. People identify as lesbian and date cis, straight men.

Wow. As a lesbian, I can tell you that negates the very essence of who we are.

It is also derogating, insulting and demeaning.

[BullDog]

Kobi, I really hope you are just speaking for yourself because there are plenty of lesbians that don't share your views, and there are lesbians who do date trans men and they still identify as lesbians.

[Gemme]

Word, Bully.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Kobi, I really hope you are just speaking for yourself because there are plenty of lesbians that don't share your views, and there are lesbians who do date trans men and they still identify as lesbians.

AGREED!!!! Couldnt have said it better Myself...

[Kobi]

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq... so you are saying in your eyes ftm and people Like Me Queer Middle sexed people should not be here??? That's the very definition of homophobia... and non acceptance of every flavor of Our big rainbow... Not every lesbian is just a simple butch or femme... there are many spectrums... the lesbian community lacks acceptance of things other than the cookie cutter "lesbian "... makes Me very sad

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by DaddyChrisCo

I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq... so you are saying in your eyes ftm and people Like Me Queer Middle sexed people should not be here??? That's the very definition of homophobia... and non acceptance of every flavor of Our big rainbow... Not every lesbian is just a simple butch or femme... there are many spectrums... the lesbian community lacks acceptance of things other than the cookie cutter "lesbian "... makes Me very sad

I agree...I find the "We must adhere and keep to lesbian ideas of purity" to be repugnant since I did not fit into what they considered "lesbian" when I first came out. I was shunned within the lesbian community because I did not "fit" their ideas about what being lesbian was. Seriously, fuck those kinds of social constructs.

[BullDog]

Kobi, I find your transphobia mind boggling.

First of all, how is your life, identity, sexuality, sexual orientation, gender identity or anything else defined by someone else's dating choices?

Another lesbian's dating life doesn't define me or anyone else.

And who you date does not define who you are either. If I ended up dating someone who didn't id as femme that wouldn't mean I wasn't butch all of a sudden.

A lesbian can date another lesbian, another woman who doesn't id as lesbian, someone gender queer, a trans man, a cis man, etc. She may very still see herself as a lesbian because that is how she has id'd for a long time and it didn't suddenly change just because she is dating someone of a different id than she did before.

Being a lesbian is not just about who you sleep with. There are community and social ties, your own personal history, your own sense of how you identify and a whole host of other factors that go into it.

You only get to define lesbian for you Kobi.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

I'm asking for myself, not anyone else. Do you see or define lesbian as 2 cis gendered women in an adult relationship?

[hopelessromantic69]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I'm asking for myself, not anyone else. Do you see or define lesbian as 2 cis gendered women in an adult relationship?

In my opinion no one has the right to define anyone's relationship. I'm not sure why people think they are so important that they can impose their opinions on a whole group of people. We all need to stop slapping labels on people and let them live their life as they see fit.
As a trans man I have been shocked by how a small group of woman in our community like to marginalize FTMs when they them selves are marginalized by our society as a whole. You would think they would have a better understanding of how that feels.
Also, enough with the definitions. They are only someone's opinion anyway. How about we are all just human beings. There! Then no one can judge or hate if we are not defined, categorized or labeled. We are not insects for god sakes.
Sorry JDeere for jumping on my soap box. I get tired of being analyzed just to make a few others feel superior over another group of people.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I'm asking for myself, not anyone else. Do you see or define lesbian as 2 cis gendered women in an adult relationship?

A lesbian by definition is a female homosexual aka same sex.

A gay man, by definition is a male homosexual aka same sex.

A bisexual, by definition is someone who sleeps with both sexes.

A heterosexual, by definition pertains to opposite sexes.

These are not my definitions, they are the definitions of sexual orientation.

This next part has nothing to do with you JD.

If you believe someone can identify as a lesbian or a female homosexual and sleep with trans or cis men or butches with dont touch my woman parts parameters, you have just negated their homosexuality/lesbianism/same sex orientation. You have just said, they are other than woman oriented, thus not homosexual. That is simple applied logic and common sense.

When a lesbian speaks to this, she does so because her identity as a female homosexual/same sex person is being negated or marginalized or distorted in their own supposed community by their own supposed community members. That is being disrespectful of someone else's identity. It is also homophobic.

And, more amazingly, the 4 of you think a female sticking up for herself and for homosexuals somehow translates into transphobia? Wow, talk about adding insult to injury.

A woman can say she is a lesbian or homosexual and sleep with variations of maleness but that is the antithesis of what a female homosexual is. I can say I am a heterosexual woman who only sleeps with other women but that is the antithesis of a heterosexual. I can say I am a giraffe but the other giraffes just pat me on the head and laugh at me when I do that - long story.

Gay people fight for gay marriage and even gay rights because they are homosexuals - same sex folks who fight for our right to exist, to be seen for who we are, and to be respected for who we are. And who we are are homosexuals - in same sex relationships.

And no one, even our own community, has the right to negate who we are, define who we are, to tell us we are something other than what we are, or to misconstrue the reality of who we are to make it more convenient for or more in tune to what they need us to be in order to validate themselves.

And, as I am on a roll here, this behavior is very much coming from a place of real or imagined male privilege. Hence, it is not only homophobic, it is also sexist and misogynistic.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

Ummm by your definition this is a lesbian site not a queer site.. I don't understand why people have to worry about others bedrooms? Also by your definition STONE BUTCHES would not be lesbians either... so confused who qualifies... In the end your view and the views of other who may share this view dont dictate who others love or their identity... More love in this world and acceptance is what the world truely needs

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by DaddyChrisCo

Ummm by your definition this is a lesbian site not a queer site.. I don't understand why people have to worry about others bedrooms? Also by your definition STONE BUTCHES would not be lesbians either... so confused who qualifies... In the end your view and the views of other who may share this view dont dictate who others love or their identity... More love in this world and acceptance is what the world truely needs

Yes. If this was a lesbian site, by the above definition..."women loving women with no sexual boundaries", then the site would be cut by probably 75%.

It is my understanding, that this is a butch (as gender) and femme (as gender) site. There is also a long tradition of people who regard themselves as either completely outside of, or somewhat outside of, what is male or female (aka trans), being on a forum like this.

Some of us happen to identify as lesbian, as well.

The site is more about gender and who we are, than who we fuck, in my opinion. We are here because we are all queer and the butch-femme dynamic speaks to us in some way. Some of us have been together since 1998 when another butch-femme forum opened.

[*Anya*]

I don't even know where to start.

I can't believe the negative turn that this thread has taken.

Kobi, to quote you, yes, the following is correct:

>>>snip<<<

"A lesbian by definition is a female homosexual aka same sex.

A gay man, by definition is a male homosexual aka same sex.

A bisexual, by definition is someone who sleeps with both sexes.

A heterosexual, by definition pertains to opposite sexes.

These are not my definitions, they are the definitions of sexual orientation."

The following, according to my own perception and knowledge is also correct:

1. This website is not a strictly lesbian website. Some of the admins may be but it has always been stressed that it is open to everyone on the continuum of identity and sexuality.

2. I did not know that when I arrived here. I was surprised. I had thought it was a butch femme lesbian site.

3. I quickly realized that how I did lesbian was not the same as everyone else's and if I did not like it or did not feel comfortable here: I could simply move on.

4. I decided to learn, to grow, to work on being less judgmental and rigid in my thinking.

5. I do not think that it is homophobic for any LGBTQ person to identify themselves however they see fit and for whatever may feel comfortable.

6. I am a lesbian. I only date, fall in love with and have sex with female-identified butch lesbians. I will always jump in when I feel lesbians are being attacked, put down or if lesbiphobia is going on.

Example, I read the following sentence and did not like it at all: "I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq".

It is those kind of generalizing statements that push my buttons. It would be as though I would say, "I find that trans folk are the most judgmental...".

Let's not lump all people in one pile please! Some lesbians are judgmental. Some trans folk are judgmental. Some people, in general are judgmental.

Have folks given thought to how some lesbians may be feeling? Especially older lesbians? As a group, in the LGBTQ, community, we may have become more inclusive and our circle has widened, but as a lesbian, there are fewer female-butch lesbians than there used to be.

Many butch lesbians find, through the process of finding their real, true self, that they want to transition. That is good for them but as a lesbian, sexually and emotionally attracted to female-identified butches: I have a sense of loss. A loss of another lesbian. That is not transphobia. That is reality. One can take that personally or one can gain a little understanding of where some lesbians may be coming from. I say some because I can't speak for all lesbians!

None of us can speak for others. Perhaps we can offer some different perspectives and hopefully, we are willing to be open-minded enough to learn and grow from it.

I hope that in the same way, we need to understand the journey of a trans person and be able to put ourselves in those shoes; that trans folk can also understand where some lesbians may be coming from.

I think that as a community, we will self-destruct if we do not accept each other. I do not feel that anyone, anywhere gets to identify someone else. We just do not have that right.

Yes, there are scientific definitions of every sexuality and identity but as human beings, we get to define ourselves. We get to decide how open and accepting we are.

I define lesbian my way.

I fought hard to do that and no one gets to tell me I am wrong.

No one.

[Vivacious1]

The anger expressed earlier with identity issues is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post. These are the responses I got when I dated a trans man. I cannot speak for others, but it is hurtful and closed minded and makes me feel quite uncomfortable.

[Vivacious1]

Hey Dapper!
Thanks for your thoughts.
Unfortunately, when I was going through the surgery with my ex, I was naïve at best. I supported him fully with his transition, but honestly had no idea what I was really getting involved with. I wish we would have seen a therapist!!!! I guess the point was that I was overwhelmed by the responsibility of his care after surgery

As far as my other questions, I am talking about a Trans man dating any female. (straight or gay) I have had this conversation with trans men and several felt that it was their right to not disclose transitioning. So, in essence their date is blind to the whole story... what if it goes further???? what if they end up making out???? Is that fair? Or is the date an ass because when they get to that point of making out, she is not ok with either the fact he is trans or the fact that he wasn't honest???

Hope that cleared it up

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

(Chuckle) you've no need to apologise to me, m'dear!

I do have a question, actually. Did anyone else - MTF or FTM - initially go for the societal stereotype of how they perceived their correct gender to present, then over time find that that's maybe not the best fit for who they are?

Hi, there. No, my "way of being", male is not out of sync with the other males in my social group/area I live in. I have always been masculine. I am not around any tobacco chewing, crotch grabbing guys which IS a place where I would stand out like a sore thumb.

I know what you are talking about though. Some trans people feel pressure to "fit" that super feminine or super masculine ideal. They worry about "fitting in " for a number of reasons....for example, some trans women might feel they need to fit society's definition of female because they want to prove to themselves they are "real women", or they feel a need to prove to cis folks that they are "real women", or feel a need to "prove" it to other trans women. So they feel they have to be super feminine, exactly what society expects, etc. It is horrid. I think it is more horrid for trans women than for the trans men. And when trans men try to go all super macho (in a way that isn't natural for them), it just makes me chuckle.

I have heard this more than once though. I not super masculine trans guy, or a not so super feminine trans woman, go to the extreme to fit in...eventually they say fuck it! and just become themselves.

What has it been like for you? Seeing that you identify as "tomboy", I assume that means you aren't super girly. Has that been rough? When you first transitioned, did you feel like you had to start out super girly? Were you worried that the UK wouldn't pay for your surgery if you didn't fit the narrative?

Originally Posted by Gemme

I have a question, Dapper.

Did anyone else watch Transformers and wish they would turn into counterparts? Seriously. I used to wish it and everything. I pulled a turkey bone once on it.

I never watched the Transformers. I was too old by the time they came out.
They were cars that changed into robots/super heros/monsters, right? So they were what and you wanted them to turn into what? And the what was then you?

And you pulled a turkey bone on it? That is serious desire dude, you're right.

I've had the same wish at every b-day cake, shooting star, time the clock say 11:11, since I was 16. So, like yeah, I win like everything.

[Esme nha Maire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

What has it been like for you? Seeing that you identify as "tomboy", I assume that means you aren't super girly. Has that been rough? When you first transitioned, did you feel like you had to start out super girly? Were you worried that the UK wouldn't pay for your surgery if you didn't fit the narrative.

Heh. Whilst even back then I was aware that the societal expectation for womens apeparance was a tad more femme than I felt internally, it didn't feel too far off, and I was entirely happy to do the skirt-suit/disco dolly thing. And back then, I associated tomboyism more with childhood and a certain kind of practical-mindedness in adult women. And yes - absolutely I loved that the world finally saw me as one of the girls, which is what I should've been from the start. I know that some going through the system at the time had such worries, and definitely did present as conventional femme in order to obtain surgery, but I was quite happy presenting so, it was what I wanted to be like, back then. It didn't occurr to me back then that that mightve been due to external pressure rather than innate.

This last couple of years have been quite odd for me as well as very happy ones. I'd been wearing my Steampunk plain Edwardian-style skirt-suits at work for a few years, and not unhappy about that specifically (I didnt have anything else I could sensibly wear, and I'm quite pragmatic. Wouldve loved more variety in my wardrobe - I love clothes, but - finances :-( )), but I knew I was in a rut and creeping back into my shell socially - and headed to a bad place mentally if I didnt do something about it.

Roller derby entering my life was a huge game-changer. Not only socially being around a lot of strong minded women determined to do their thing and heck what anyone thought about it (and utterly accepting of me), but the weight I lost in my efforts to get fitter meant my skirt-suits now fell off me. Jeans and cheap tank tops were the quick solution.

Woah. BIG sudden change, and at first it felt uncomfortable, and I did worry a tad that I might be 'read' more often as being MTF in jeans and T-shirt, but after a while it became the new normal, the world didn't end, straight men still annoyingly make passes at me, and I realised that I was feeling pretty comfortable with this image, actually, it better reflected my personality - femme, but with a practical edge, and not always too worried about the niceties or things being just so. It also fit well with my being part of several 'alternative' social scenes (Goth, Steampunk, roller derby), somehow.

Nowadays I feel more one of the laddish girls that can do classic femme when she wants to - and does, but not often, and am quite happy thus. I was startled my first couple of times on the lesbian scene when both times someone presumed I was butch. No idea why, I didnt get chance to ask, but I suspect it was because I wasnt in skirts and court shoes, and then there's my sheer size - I'm a big lass. I mentioned this to my boss the other week and she laughed and said 'you're definitely not butch, you're too feminine!' and friends have concurred. Awkward, me... :-}

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I never watched the Transformers. I was too old by the time they came out.
They were cars that changed into robots/super heros/monsters, right? So they were what and you wanted them to turn into what? And the what was then you?

And you pulled a turkey bone on it? That is serious desire dude, you're right.

I've had the same wish at every b-day cake, shooting star, time the clock say 11:11, since I was 16. So, like yeah, I win like everything.

You're never too old for animation. Let's just clear that up right away.



They are (since the movie series is still alive) robots that turn into vehicles of some sort. I wanted them to turn into roboty people. Now that I've progressed a bit in my life, I realize I wanted them to be butch or trans. Actually, trans is perfect, since they did, in fact, transform/transition. It's part of their name and their theme song.



To be fair, I also broke a wishbone on getting my own unicorn, so there's that.