Stone--Personal Definitions

[julieisafemme]

Just a little aside? I am not sure why you would post that. It is to me downright rude after others have come before you to share their personal feelings on what stone means.

Originally Posted by apretty

i'm femme and i've been with a few butches with personal sexual-boundaries. i can't even remember if they called themselves 'stone'. but the self-identifying-'stone' butches i have been with all defined stone way differently: for some it was about breasts, others vagina, others about just respecting their body and following their lead as far as what was cool, what wasn't so cool--and what was 'no way' --usually the butt, a lot of people have some butt-boundaries (and i even think that this one butch had herpes and that was her way of navigating sex stuff.)


personally, i've only been *stone* when i'm just not that into who's fucking me; somehow that goes over better than 'could you come over and do me and then go home because i can barely stand you, but i'm single and you'll do.'



oh and i have to just add a little aside: there is no feminizing touch, you think rubbing a clit in a circular motion vs. an up and down motion 'feminizes' someone? if that's true--that's a REAL delicate butch (with regards to their masculinity) that you've got on your hands, as it were.

[MsDemeanor]

The problem with threads about stone is that we stones all pretty much more or less understand what we mean by "feminizing"; though the exact specifics can vary from person to person, there's a general nod of "yeah". Invariably, though, someone who is not stone will come in and make a stink or demand some textbook definition or say something derogatory, and then the whole discussion turns to shit.

[JustJo]

Hello everyone

I've been reading this thread because I've been trying to understand the concept of "stone" better. I know that I'm not...just trying to wrap my brain around it.

So I have a, perhaps silly, question. I'm hearing that for most people it seems to be a sexual boundary issue rather than an identity issue.

Are there some out there for whom it is an identity...say comparable to butch or femme? And for whom sexual boundaries maybe don't apply or are a lesser consideration than the identity? And, if there are, what does that mean to you?

I'm not sure if this is very clear...it's one of those "don't know what I don't know" moments for me...

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

The problem with threads about stone is that we stones all pretty much more or less understand what we mean by "feminizing"; though the exact specifics can vary from person to person, there's a general nod of "yeah". Invariably, though, someone who is not stone will come in and make a stink or demand some textbook definition or say something derogatory, and then the whole discussion turns to shit.

This is very true and can really stink for those who are reading and exploring their identity and feeling that Stone fits them. Just as soon as the discussion gets going, it stalls out.

[tcbbutch]

I am a Stonebutch and Male ID'd for myself identifying as Stone has always been the way to let others know who I am sexually. When I was dating it saved a lot of heartache and even then some out there still try to cross those boundaries..jeez..
For myself it's just that I am not connected sexually to certain body areas that others assume must be how we are all sexually satisfied. As a Stonebutch, I partner with Stonefemmes and thats a wonderful thing.
I find it such an insult to all the wonderful Stonebutches and Stonefemmes in our community that we have to constantly explain ourselves as if we are too queer for the queer community. So I hope that we can keep this thread on track for honest discussion and maybe enlightening anyone who has an honest question.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I am curious about those who ID as *Stone* and what that specific WORD means to them on a personal and relationship level.

Is it sexual boundaries or gender ID or a combination of the two or something one cannot explain that makes one ID as *Stone*?

Originally Posted by JustJo

So I have a, perhaps silly, question. I'm hearing that for most people it seems to be a sexual boundary issue rather than an identity issue.

Are there some out there for whom it is an identity...say comparable to butch or femme? And for whom sexual boundaries maybe don't apply or are a lesser consideration than the identity? And, if there are, what does that mean to you?

For me, "Stone" is about my gender. My gender is Femme--specifically, Stonefemme. It encompasses who I am and how I live my life, how I carry myself as a female-bodied person in this world; it's about boundaries, energy flows, and respect.

For me, being a Stonefemme is natural. It makes me flexible. (Yeah, I know, nobody thinks of Stones as flexible--surprise!) It means that I am able to fit well with partners who have varied gender and sexual identities.

It also means that respect is at the heart of everything I do, respect for myself and my boundaries--not just sexual, but relationship and social as well--and respect for my partner and his (or her) boundaries; as well as respect for the people around us and their relationship and social boundaries. They can keep their sexual lives to themselves, tyvm... but then, that IS a part of my social boundaries to be private about sex. You might not think so if you've known me online for very long, but this is a different space and dynamic, not at all the same here where we're analyzing/dissecting/discussing our identities and lives as, say, the neighborhood association meeting tonight!

So yes, for me, Stone is a gender ID and it encompasses WAY more than sexual boundaries. Yes, I can respect any no-fly zones. Yes, I understand how to speak and act in ways that support my partner's sexual and gender identities. Yes, I am flexible enough to be able to partner with people who might have vastly different no-fly zones--or whose no-fly zones might change over the course of the relationship.

No, sexual boundaries are not the be-all and end-all of my identity, nor are they most important part of being Stone for me. Stonefemme is a big huge identity; the word is about the totality of who I am. It's not one small limited piece of my life... it's the over-arching framework that fits into the world and makes space for me.

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Bit

For me, "Stone" is about my gender. My gender is Femme--specifically, Stonefemme. It encompasses who I am and how I live my life, how I carry myself as a female-bodied person in this world; it's about boundaries, energy flows, and respect.

For me, being a Stonefemme is natural. It makes me flexible. (Yeah, I know, nobody thinks of Stones as flexible--surprise!) It means that I am able to fit well with partners who have varied gender and sexual identities.

It also means that respect is at the heart of everything I do, respect for myself and my boundaries--not just sexual, but relationship and social as well--and respect for my partner and his (or her) boundaries; as well as respect for the people around us and their relationship and social boundaries. They can keep their sexual lives to themselves, tyvm... but then, that IS a part of my social boundaries to be private about sex. You might not think so if you've known me online for very long, but this is a different space and dynamic, not at all the same here where we're analyzing/dissecting/discussing our identities and lives as, say, the neighborhood association meeting tonight!

So yes, for me, Stone is a gender ID and it encompasses WAY more than sexual boundaries. Yes, I can respect any no-fly zones. Yes, I understand how to speak and act in ways that support my partner's sexual and gender identities. Yes, I am flexible enough to be able to partner with people who might have vastly different no-fly zones--or whose no-fly zones might change over the course of the relationship.

No, sexual boundaries are not the be-all and end-all of my identity, nor are they most important part of being Stone for me. Stonefemme is a big huge identity; the word is about the totality of who I am. It's not one small limited piece of my life... it's the over-arching framework that fits into the world and makes space for me.

From my ME place, my experience is that you are a rarity......

But as for what stone means, that's been an evolving concept for me partially due to discussions with folks like Bit. I used to think stone encompassed pretty specific sexual boundaries. But I have shifted my view that it's about whatever sexual boundaries might be negotiated. And because I have some boundaries (that I feel no need to get detailed about) I fit Bit's definition of stone even I don't fit what I used to understand as the generic definition of stone.

Again from my ME place, stone is there for me but more background and less foreground. Identity is a very individual thing and what is important to one person may be much less important to another.

I've also found that my understanding of self and identity has evolved over time. Some of it is learning to be comfortable in your own skin. Some of it is learning from other people's thoughts and experiences.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Just a little aside? I am not sure why you would post that. It is to me downright rude after others have come before you to share their personal feelings on what stone means.

how is that a little aside? oh. you're mocking my choice of words.

at any rate, i don't know how i could have been more personal in my explicit sharing of how i define stone.

sorry, i guess this is one of those instances where someone (me) isn't doing it right.*

*i've never, however, had anyone leap from my bed because they felt that i was feminizing them (read: not doing it right).

please carry on, i have no desire to turn this thread "to shit" by either defending my definition of stone or by the fact that i have zero desire to have *stone* be a part of my personal identity.

[Bard]

OK I will try and give my story if you will it is kind of hard for me but I know here I may not be judged.. I for a long time did not know what I was had no idea that I was stone I just kenw I was diffrent I am and alwys have been a very sexual creature.. but I just did not or could not "feel it" I would fake it just to please who I was with or just to get them to stop. I learned to be more the agressor to be more drive her more wear her out then the focus is on her not on me became very one sided. I learned to read what a woman wanted becmae a very attentive lover. then I found butch femme and I read and I learned I grew and became so sure of me. I love the dance the exchanging of energy the way my lover responds to me how I can drive her pleasure and desire chrashing it drives me. at long last I understand me it is not that a touch can feminize me it is just I freeze up .. I have to be touched in a diffrent way .. my mind my heart .. there has been once yes but only then .. at least here we understand each other and do not look at being stone as a sexual disfunction only a person with limited understanding would say that and yes the one who reached me is the one who said it Stone is just who and what I am from the inside just a block of ice and I am strong and secure in that

[Nat]

I thought I was stone for a while in that I had issues penetrating another person. I found it upsetting and it turned me off. In my case, though, it was a stopping place on my own journey, rather than the final port of call.

I eventually figured out I was deeply afraid of violating another person, that when I went there, it bothered me because of this fear - to the point where I was dissociating a bit. On top of that, I was just new and I hate being bad at stuff.

Over time and in increments, what part of me I considered stone went away. I am still extremely concerned with knowing boundaries and with trusting my lover to have a strong "no" should she ever need to use it, because I don't want to find out after the fact that something I have done made another person feel violated. It's still a really deep fear. Having confidence and trust in this respect has just really allowed me to be in my own skin and just be able to enjoy (relish) those experiences which I was most reticent about before. Plus, it helps when you're with somebody just really amazing.

Even though I'm not stone anymore, I am really grateful to those stone femmes who were there for me back then. Without several wise stone femme voices, I may have mistakenly felt during that time that maybe I wasn't queer after all or queer enough. I was very recently out of a straight marriage at that time, and I was so unsteady on my feet. The voices and presence of stone people within the community really made me feel like there was a home for me here whether or not I had the capacity or desire to perform to the standards and reciprocity levels that I may have otherwise felt were expected of me.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Nat

I thought I was stone for a while in that I had issues penetrating another person. I found it upsetting and it turned me off. In my case, though, it was a stopping place on my own journey, rather than the final port of call.

I eventually figured out I was deeply afraid of violating another person, that when I went there, it bothered me because of this fear - to the point where I was dissociating a bit. On top of that, I was just new and I hate being bad at stuff.

Over time and in increments, what part of me I considered stone went away. I am still extremely concerned with knowing boundaries and with trusting my lover to have a strong "no" should she ever need to use it, because I don't want to find out after the fact that something I have done made another person feel violated. It's still a really deep fear. Having confidence and trust in this respect has just really allowed me to be in my own skin and just be able to enjoy (relish) those experiences which I was most reticent about before. Plus, it helps when you're with somebody just really amazing.

Even though I'm not stone anymore, I am really grateful to those stone femmes who were there for me back then. Without several wise stone femme voices, I may have mistakenly felt during that time that maybe I wasn't queer after all or queer enough. I was very recently out of a straight marriage at that time, and I was so unsteady on my feet. The voices and presence of stone people within the community really made me feel like there was a home for me here whether or not I had the capacity or desire to perform to the standards and reciprocity levels that I may have otherwise felt were expected of me.

Heh. I was thinking of posting here but eventually it looked familiar to me and so I searched and found myself. Much of what I said above remains the same now.

I've run into enough variations with butches who call themselves stone and those who do not that I mainly take that word to mean I need more info before proceeding in certain directions, while erring on the side of caution. I think I tend to do this with most butches unless I get like a hundred percent have-at green light.

I'm really glad people know their boundaries because what really sucks is when people don't know their boundaries til they've been crossed. I guess to me stone equates to boundaries more than identity or whom I would date or whom that person would date. I'm not stone, but I certainly wouldn't kick a stone butch out of bed. Or a stone femme either for that matter.

Chemistry is magical - to me the boundaries, the different dynamics between two people - it's just all part of that same magic - something largely unique to me and that other person. What acts are performed or how or what parts are treated what ways etc - all of that is part of the natural flow and the magic, the play of darkness and light, the energy exchange when the chemistry's right. To me the chemistry is the main deal, and everything else can be worked with or around - and trust is part - the biggest part - of that.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I can really relate to that. the first three female lovers I had were stone. and I did not want to penetrate anyone. I was very slowly introduced to it by my fourth whom made me understand it wasn't feminising. once I understood that, that the inside of a butch felt...well... *butch* I was good to go.

I didn't ID as stonefemme then as it never really came up as an ID up for discussion. I didn't start seeing it until later. I saw it as just a factual boundary. Not really an ID, at the time. Sort of like, if someone isn't into anal sex. or nipple clamps.

Since then it hasn't really been a big deal if someone is stone or not in terms of penetration. But I do need someone who's willing to let me feel their flesh cock swell in my mouth. cause I can't not ever not have that again. But as for being penetrated... if they don't want it... ok. plenty of other things to do for them.

But since I am happy to penetrate those who want it, I can't call myself a stonefemme. And since 80% submissive and bottom... I go for the label of fuckdolly or pillowqueen.

so. Chemistry IS the big deal. completely. I've had a huge learning curve about the difference between a dominant and a top. And it makes a heap of sense now.

[Blaze]

You know, this one is going to be difficult for me to express, only because so many of you have touched bases on what I wanted to say. But let me give it a try anyway... Perhaps, in a different view.
I recall my childhood years as always wishing I was a boy, I grew up with 97% male entities around me, though I worshiped my Mother. So basically everything about me was male identified. Except when my Mother put the dresses on and shooed me off to school. But I quickly figured out how to out smart her, (or so I thought) by putting on shorts under the dress and as I was shooed out the door I would pull off the dress and put on my t-shirt and toss the dress into the bushes knowing that I had to run home quickly so I could put the dress on as if I had been wearing it all day. (Mom stopped forcing me to wear them when she found them in the bushes daily is what she admitted to me much later in life) <~What a Woman!


In my teens/young twenties. I was just one of the boys, sports, cars, surfing, checking out woman. And I also remember my Mother taking me to Sears and allowing me to shop in the men's department, even allowing me to wear boxers because I would steal my brothers new ones that she bought them, so she just let me pick my own because theirs were to big for me anyway. Flash forward to my first relationship, She respected my masculinity and allowed me to be the aggressor and become the male identified person that I was. So I guess you could say I was lucky to have a woman that was Stone Femme and we both appreciated each others company and space. Now my next relationship was short lived, as I tried for weeks to explain to her that she didn't do anything wrong, I wasn't punishing her and that I did adore her, but didn't want to be touched in the places she so wanted to touch me on. I think it was Des'd that expressed that familiar experience. I felt just as bad, and even questioned if I was doing this correctly, or if I was being selfish, mean, or fridge d. So that ended as quickly as it started.


I pretty much took a break from relationships and just concentrated on life in general. Hanging with the older Butch gendered that took the time to teach me the old school ethics and expectations to which I grew very fond of, and I cherish the time and labor they put into making it easier for the rest of us to just walk into too. Teaching me that It was okay to question, but I had the right to state my expectations as well, So became the entitlement of calling myself a Stone Butch, and being relaxed to state that this was my preferences, this is what I wanted, and this is who I am. Now at the present, I am a true believer in knowing that what ever makes you (the person you are comfortable as) is who you need to be true too. I am very comfortable in my own skin, I look male most of the time, the few that actually look deeper and identify me as female, empowerment to them, they took the time to notice, and I don't get all bent out of shape because the pegged me, lol.


So yes, I'm top, yes I am masculine identified, yes I am a woman, yes I still have menopausal heat flashes that are pesky. And yes. I am proud of being a Butch, and labeled Transgendered identified, and Stone. Everyone has brought very vital and interesting points to the thread and I wish I could touch on every one of them, but y'all did the definition justice and make it much easier for others who are trying to figure out who they are, or where they belong. Bravo to all of you for the honesty and dedications!


I'm just happy to be who I am, and don't intend to be what everyone else wants me to be. Life is meant to be lived, and you have to make it comfortable to live in. Be YOU!

Perhaps I danced around the subject, but then again, everyone else said what I wanted to, but better than I. So thank you.

[friskyfemme]

I answered this question sometime back in another forum. It generated some miscommunication. I will try not to offend others . Here goes.

'Stone' for me is who I seek for a sexual partner ('stone' butches or TGs). It's not a gender for me, but it also defines what sexual acts I do and do not find sexual stimulating. I don't enjoy performing oral sex. I don't like feeling or manipulating my partner's chest/breast. Using 'stone', helps cut through, explaining what I expect or need sexually and that I respect my partner's needs, wants, and desires.

I do, however, loved to be licked, suckled, and penetrated (fingers, dildo and cock).

I am also a 'bottom femme' but that's another thread!

[Stoney]

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

[Converse]

Originally Posted by Stoney

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

Borrowing from dark crystals definitions, I seem to recall some dialogue about Stonefemme as one word and Stone Femme as two separate words.

The latter referring to limits on how one was engaged with sexually aka Stone Butch (Stone Femme -a femme who does not wish to be genitally stimulated by her partner during sex) and the former being about ones preferences on how they related to their partners body (Stonefemme- a femme who is attracted to or partnered with masculine or stone butches; who does not wish to sexually touch her partners' genitals, or whose partner does not wish to have her/hys/his biological genitals touched).

I’m one of those that respond well to labelling, I appreciate the ‘short-cut’ introductions and the fact that it enables me not to have to constantly explain how I relate to the world. This of course only works if definitions are agreed to, understood and maintained- but perhaps life isn’t so easily navigated after all. Maybe I’m just getting grumpy in my old age, because while I’m ok with people changing what labels they feel akin to- that makes sense to me, it is when the meanings of the labels themselves change that I get frustrated.

HowSoonIsNow I appreciate you starting this thread and opening the dialogue-, and a thank you to you as well Stoney; your direct questions are how we find agreement and mutual understanding of meanings. While personal definitions are important, to me their value only comes once a universal (as in butch-femme community) understanding is reached.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Stoney

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

Yes, for better or worse, that's correct. And pretty darned confusing. There are femme women who have the same sexual boundaries typical of a stone butch. They may or may not strap, but they are the 'pitcher'. Those women are stone femmes. I believe Bit once suggested that in order to differentiate we could use 'stone femme' for a femme sexual top who does not want to be penetrated, and 'stonefemme' for a femme sexual bottom who claims the ID we've been dissecting in the above thread.

Yeah, OK, I can do that. Unfortunately the terms are barely distinguishable in print and utterly indistinguishable when spoken. What is more, the word 'stone' simply does not fit the openness and receptivity embodied by a stonefemme. 'Stone' is a wonderful descriptor for any person who does not get penetrated. 'Stone' evokes impenetrability. Which is why it always made me uncomfortable as part of the term that describes me.

Another reason I don't like the term is that using it for both a stone femme sexual top as well as a stonefemme sexual bottom will eventually erase the identity of those who are in the minority, (stone femme sexual tops). If logic prevailed, which it probably won't, 'stone' would be solely the provenance of the impenetrable.

I haven't thought of anything nearly clever enough to replace this term. I wish someone else would. I would adopt it in a heartbeat as long as it doesn't imply 'fragile flower'.

[Bit]

I hear ya, Cheryl, I really hear ya... but so far, "stonefemme" is all we've got. I know it doesn't evoke softness, receptivity, or flexibility in the least, which is utterly ironic since those are terms that seem to apply to so many of us--and that seem to also describe what so many Stone Butches find attractive in us!

I would say "girl" because that fits such a huge number of stonefemmes, but then we would be leaving out all the stonefemmes who don't identify at all as girls--and it would confuse matters horribly with all the girls who are not stonefemmes!

I honestly don't know how to find a word that would fit us all without leaving anyone out and without causing more confusion than it solves.

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by Stoney

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

Yep Stoney,

For me... you got it nailed!

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Stoney

So am I under standing that a stone femme may be

both a top----not wishing touch similar to a stone butch

and also a bottom who is a receiver of touch, but is more comfortable in ''not '' reciprocating the same touch for whatever reason that makes up their preferential dynamic?

Is this right?


thanks for all the responses, this has been great. Very interesting .

Much peace all,

Stoney

This is a actually a pretty good synopsis.