Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[SassyLeo]

In the 80's/90's when my dad came out in SF, breeder was a word I heard ALL THE TIME. Not specifically in company of family or friends (though I am sure it happened) but just out in the world. Especially in the Castro on days when a demonstration was taking place on the corner or during Pride. Again, this was 15 to 20 years ago. Even though I was a teenager at the time, I knew what it meant and that it was used as a derogatory term aimed at someone who had just said something homophobic or in "gay boy talk" as I call it or caddy, gossipy talk - (again years ago...)

I do not use the word and rarely hear it these days in my world. I have never heard the word being used in a positive way.

In terms of women being bred to have children, I agree with the history of patriarchy in the world...in old traditional, religious cultures, women get married and have children. It is what they believe women are "to do". This is a -generalization-. I'm not saying all women are this way and all cultures are this way, etc.

The last century has changed and shifted what women's roles are, specifically in more lieberal countries, obviously. I think women are raised to make their own choices about children. We are not forced to have them. We also can have them without a husband or partner. We can adopt. We have choices.

My parents had very traditional and incredibly dysfunctional and mostly pretty crappy upbringings and they set out to do pretty much the exact opposite with me.

I decided many years ago that I did not want to have children. A personal choice. I've always been upfront with my parents about not wanting children of my own and they support me either way. I NEVER felt pressure to get married, not get married, have kids, not have kids, I've always been told I have choices.

Of course, my parents are queer...so I realize I am kind of an anomaly

And I have friends who have children and I think it is wonderful! I admire their love and dedication. I love being a pseudo auntie. I watched one of my best friends through her pregnancy and birth of her daughter. It was amazing. And if someone had deemed her a breeder from that incredible experience... well, that's awful.

Of course, when my grandfather died a couple of years ago, I went with my parents to his funeral with a ton of family I hadn't seen in years. One of the first things out of my 78 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

[Oneida]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

One of the first things out of my 75 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I really don't want this thread to turn into what Dylan thinks about how women are groomed. I get what hy is saying and I hear hym.

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

no. i was typing fast and using a default male pronoun.
confusing a y for an e is hardly changing your pronoun Dylan.

were we disagreeing?

[Martina]

i had two meetings with parents this week. One adopted a kid whose birth mother had used drugs during her pregnancy. This kid has a conduct disorder. This mother has always done everything she could for her son, spent every dime she could on tutoring, counseling, etc. She works with him daily and is researching right now a placement for him beyond what we can provide. What would her life have been like had she not adopted this child? Much much easier. She has stuck with this kid through thick and thin. He's her son, and she would do anything for him. He's a sweet kid, but difficult is an understatement.

i had another meeting this week with a mother who speaks no English. Her son is seriously emotionally disturbed. She has tried for years to get this kid help. She finally got it this year. She prevailed, and now her child has a chance to live a decent life.

A couple of weeks ago i met with a grandmother raising her grandson. The student is staying out sometimes all night. The grandmother is worried sick, haunted. She is this very grown up working woman. Clearly a woman of great dignity. i offered her a little support and helped work with her grandson so he'd at least call her. She teared up.

These are the parents i see. These are usually poor. Many do not speak English. They are all people of color. They live in or near an unbelievably dangerous neighborhood, and there is the constant threat of violence in their children's lives. They have every disadvantage it is possible to have in this state. And that's how they parent. They are not breeders.

i am going to alternative school graduation today. i have been several times before. You'll never see happier parents in your life. Many of the graduates are kids who others gave up on, including their school district. Trust me, most districts don't put much money into alternative education. When students graduate, it's a testament to them and to their parents.

The only parent i have worked with who made a bad decision concerning her child was middle class and, ironically, an educator. Her ego couldn't take the stigma of putting her son in a certain placement, so the kid didn't get the help he needed. He is now in jail.

[SuperFemme]

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. So I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. Si I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation.

Thanks for your apology.

I understand exactly what you're saying about the term breeder feeling erasing and hurtful. As someone who is female-bodied, I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. Firie has already explained this isn't a word we use (in the sense you're speaking of).

My use of it was *intentional* and meant to be...er...um...what's the word I want...offensive I guess, because I DO find the way the patriarchy views women and grooms girls to be baby-making machines *offensive*.

Again, being that I was making a correlation between FLDS (which is a horribly misogynist society which openly treats women as such through numerous grooming techniques) and mainstream US/Western culture and the sexism/grooming therein, my use of the word was *intentional*

Yes, I agree 100% that the term is offensive...that's why I used it...it was the whole point of the original post...that it IS offensive the way girls are groomed


Dylan

[evolveme]

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Oneida

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

Right?

My mother was/is upset, because she'll "never have grandchildren"

It was one of the first things out of her mouth

When I was about 10ish (I guess...I don't really remember), my mother also told me, "One day you'll meet a man like your [step] dad and have a bunch of kids"

Her nice catholic upbringing left her feeling like a failure, because she never had twelve kids. And naturally, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of her 'dream' to have a shit ton of them.

And ironically, she was considered the town Hester Prynne because she'd had one out of wedlock...and considered herself such on top of being a failure for not producing 11 more kids. It was (still is) a completely fucked up (patriarchal) view. A woman isn't 'useful' unless she produces boatloads of offspring...but even if she DOES produce boatloads of offspring, if she doesn't do it FOR a man, she's still considered 'bad' (as evidenced by Firie's comments re: judges' comments that women are breeders...even if they're raped).


Dylan

[blush]

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by blush

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Interesting point.

The number of children that is considered desirable or even acceptable varies alot from culture to culture as well.

Friends of mine in Switzerland told me that they were celebrated for their first child, got modest congratulations on their second, and then dirty looks and snide comments in public from strangers after their third. They are white, middle class, professionals...yet Swiss culture evidently frowns on families of more than 2 children as being environmentally and personally irresponsible.

Guess it all depends on where you're coming from...

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by blush

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Isn't that show only popular in terms of rubbernecking? I don't know one person (in real life) who doesn't make fun of the Duggars. Hell, ---I--- make fun of the Duggars. I think of them as irresponsible and self-congratulatory.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Right?

My mother was/is upset, because she'll "never have grandchildren"

It was one of the first things out of her mouth

When I was about 10ish (I guess...I don't really remember), my mother also told me, "One day you'll meet a man like your [step] dad and have a bunch of kids"

Her nice catholic upbringing left her feeling like a failure, because she never had twelve kids. And naturally, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of her 'dream' to have a shit ton of them.

And ironically, she was considered the town Hester Prynne because she'd had one out of wedlock...and considered herself such on top of being a failure for not producing 11 more kids. It was (still is) a completely fucked up (patriarchal) view. A woman isn't 'useful' unless she produces boatloads of offspring...but even if she DOES produce boatloads of offspring, if she doesn't do it FOR a man, she's still considered 'bad' (as evidenced by Firie's comments re: judges' comments that women are breeders...even if they're raped).


Dylan

I'm sorry that you were raised in that way, Dylan. It's obviously affected your view on so many things.

My Mom said to me the day after my hysterectomy..."Well now I really know you won't have children". I was pretty stunned, considering she knew I was gay for at least 10 years at that point. No to mention *I* knew I did not and had never wanted children. However, she did not force her view upon me. I get the feeling, Dylan, that you believe thinking about your Daughters AND Sons having a family is a derogotory thing. That is somehow translates to the negative. I have to say, not always. I think it's quite natural for a parent to want the best for thier children. And if they think the white picket fence world is the best thing in the whole world, then that's what they wish for them! It doesn't have to be about patriarcle (blah blah blah however you spell that I'm sure the police will fix it) bullshit. My Father, for the record, stated "I just want her to be happy", when he finally came to terms with me being gay.

My 2 cents on that part.

As far as nasty words.....Oneida's list says it best. We ALL use derogitory terms at some point in our lives. And they certainly aren't meant to make friends! And yep, it shows our misgivings.

-Mr. Moon

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

I'm sorry that you were raised in that way, Dylan. It's obviously affected your view on so many things.

My Mom said to me the day after my hysterectomy..."Well now I really know you won't have children". I was pretty stunned, considering she knew I was gay for at least 10 years at that point. No to mention *I* knew I did not and had never wanted children. However, she did not force her view upon me. I get the feeling, Dylan, that you believe thinking about your Daughters AND Sons having a family is a derogotory thing. That is somehow translates to the negative. I have to say, not always. I think it's quite natural for a parent to want the best for thier children. And if they think the white picket fence world is the best thing in the whole world, then that's what they wish for them! It doesn't have to be about patriarcle (blah blah blah however you spell that I'm sure the police will fix it) bullshit. My Father, for the record, stated "I just want her to be happy", when he finally came to terms with me being gay.

My 2 cents on that part.



-Mr. Moon

Moon, I like ya' a lot, and I'm saying this with a lot of respect.

It bothers me that you've made assumptions about the way I was raised and that you've assumed you 'know where my views come from' based on a few sentences I've posted about my mother's Catholic-induced views.

Also, I have no idea how anything I've said in this thread or the other translates into wanting a family is bad. Seriously, if I have posted something in particular that would lead you to think that's what I'm saying, I truly apologize.

Of course (most) people want the best for their kids.

I sincerely have no idea how anything I've said has implied what I've highlighted above


Dylan

[Mr. Moon]

From what I read, that was my take home message.

I'm not gonna play the quote thing. Takes too much time for something that seems silly.

I meant no disrespect. The quote I quoted from you seemed clear to me.

I honestly thought you laid it out there. That's what I got from it.

Again, no disrespect meant, Dylan.
-Mr. Moon

[SuperFemme]

While the discussion on whether or not Mother is Universally sacred is one that is worth having...can we get back to what the OP was about here?

Which is words that we use to hurt each other within the Queer Community and why.

At a recent local event I was asked why I married a "he-she". Who even says that within the contexts of Queer World anymore?
I was stunned into silence to be honest. Which I regret. Because that turned into me being so mad I could only cry and I hate being in that spot.

[Nat]

I sure love my mom. I guess that's the main feeling I'm getting from this thread, reading back over it this morning (okay afternoon but it's still morning to me).

I think conception, pregnancy and birth are pretty damn sacred. I think life is pretty damn sacred. I'm extremely grateful that I exist. My mom could have simply aborted my inconvenient ass, but she instead has made a lifetime of sacrifices for my sake. To me, that's pretty sacred and I am extremely grateful. I have a friend who got pregnant in her teens, carried that child to term and gave him up for adoption. I think that's pretty sacred too. I've had friends who had abortions because they felt their own well-being was more important, and I think this also is sacred because it honors life. I know there are bad moms, but if nothing else, to get here, we were all carried around for approximately 9 months taking up space and feeding off of another person's body when we were too small and fragile and undeveloped to survive outside the womb, and there's something sacred about that to me.

[firie]

I think some women are going to view motherhood as very sacred, and so it indeed is. Some women are going to view it as torture, have no connection to a child or children, to the point of harming that child or killing that child. I think sacred as an absolute is or can be very problematic, because it gets into the heart of the myth that "every woman should achieve motherhood to be valued" which for those that don't really want the experience of motherhood but through process of socialization, peer pressure, religious thinking, or whatever else influences that which is beyond a woman's absolute and outright individual will, well, some of those women can and do find themselves along with fetus and child in a great deal of pain perhaps.

I remember many years ago clearly debating with a friend about the "natural" instincts of motherhood, and she schooled me in the knowledge that loving a child wasn't a natural instinct of all women. It made me change my thought process on it all (I was like 23 or so, I think, so very naive). It taught me not to think in absolutes.

I don't know if that makes any sense or is a derail, but I view motherhood as sacred, when it is sacred (meaning that a mother views it as such). I don't view motherhood as sacred when clearly it is not sacred, say in the cases where it has only brought the worst of feelings toward motherhood because, well, motherhood was the mark of oppression and not one of joy, as viewed in the personal experience of a mother. I guess I am speaking from the place, that if a mother told me that she did not view her experience of motherhood as sacred, but instead as tortuous (it's been said to me before), then I wouldn't argue with her and tell her that she is indeed wrong on that, and ALL of motherhood is sacred. I hope this makes sense.

I am not a mother, so therefore, my personal experience cannot inform me if that experience is indeed sacred. I could very well be the mother that views it differently so I cannot judge there and say all of motherhood is sacred.