Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

no. i was typing fast and using a default male pronoun.
confusing a y for an e is hardly changing your pronoun Dylan.

were we disagreeing?

[Martina]

i had two meetings with parents this week. One adopted a kid whose birth mother had used drugs during her pregnancy. This kid has a conduct disorder. This mother has always done everything she could for her son, spent every dime she could on tutoring, counseling, etc. She works with him daily and is researching right now a placement for him beyond what we can provide. What would her life have been like had she not adopted this child? Much much easier. She has stuck with this kid through thick and thin. He's her son, and she would do anything for him. He's a sweet kid, but difficult is an understatement.

i had another meeting this week with a mother who speaks no English. Her son is seriously emotionally disturbed. She has tried for years to get this kid help. She finally got it this year. She prevailed, and now her child has a chance to live a decent life.

A couple of weeks ago i met with a grandmother raising her grandson. The student is staying out sometimes all night. The grandmother is worried sick, haunted. She is this very grown up working woman. Clearly a woman of great dignity. i offered her a little support and helped work with her grandson so he'd at least call her. She teared up.

These are the parents i see. These are usually poor. Many do not speak English. They are all people of color. They live in or near an unbelievably dangerous neighborhood, and there is the constant threat of violence in their children's lives. They have every disadvantage it is possible to have in this state. And that's how they parent. They are not breeders.

i am going to alternative school graduation today. i have been several times before. You'll never see happier parents in your life. Many of the graduates are kids who others gave up on, including their school district. Trust me, most districts don't put much money into alternative education. When students graduate, it's a testament to them and to their parents.

The only parent i have worked with who made a bad decision concerning her child was middle class and, ironically, an educator. Her ego couldn't take the stigma of putting her son in a certain placement, so the kid didn't get the help he needed. He is now in jail.

[SuperFemme]

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. So I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. Si I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation.

Thanks for your apology.

I understand exactly what you're saying about the term breeder feeling erasing and hurtful. As someone who is female-bodied, I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. Firie has already explained this isn't a word we use (in the sense you're speaking of).

My use of it was *intentional* and meant to be...er...um...what's the word I want...offensive I guess, because I DO find the way the patriarchy views women and grooms girls to be baby-making machines *offensive*.

Again, being that I was making a correlation between FLDS (which is a horribly misogynist society which openly treats women as such through numerous grooming techniques) and mainstream US/Western culture and the sexism/grooming therein, my use of the word was *intentional*

Yes, I agree 100% that the term is offensive...that's why I used it...it was the whole point of the original post...that it IS offensive the way girls are groomed


Dylan

[evolveme]

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

[SuperFemme]

What I really wanted to explore was the offensive way we use the term against one another (or anyone) but I can see that that is limiting so let's just discuss.

[firie]

Originally Posted by evolveme

My experience of motherhood is sacred to me.

This does not erase the reality of innumerable women and girls all over the world who are daily forced into the condition of motherhood against their ability or right to choose such a condition for themselves. To denounce the use of the term "breeder" even in an effort to construct a framework in understanding how it is used against women by the very paradigm that has created these conditions, seems to me, another method of limiting our choices in how we work to combat what has happened/is happening to us.

No one here - not one person - has argued that this word is not harmful. The original intent, to my reading, was to discuss exactly how harmful the basis for the use of this word is. And, yes, it's pretty fucking horrific. But not to be able to utilize it as a means of discussing the origins of its nefarious uses -- whether mine, yours or the patriarchy's -- is only another way to make secret what should be emblazoned across the consciousness of every woman everywhere.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

Exactly. And I would admit to typically trying to avoid the word "sacred" when describing motherhood unless a mother tells me that is her word to describe her experience, because I tend to quite shy away from words that do have a certain "religious" quality to them (it's my stubborn atheism perhaps) . But if that is the experience of the mother, then that, to me, is a beautiful, marvelous thing.

[Martina]

So how about saying parenting is or should be sacred -- in the sense of being among a culture's highest values.

Parenting should be more highly valued and rewarded in our culture.

Raising girls with no other goal other than that they will procreate is dehumanizing. (i don't even like the word "grooming," btw.)

But the people who experience it are still fully human. And parenting itself is not dehumanizing. On the contrary. For most people it is an experience that gets them more in touch with their humanity.

For others it is a nightmare. That is when we should all help.

Part of the reason it isn't as pleasant as it should be here in the west has nothing to do with how voluntary it is, but the fact that parents are left on their own without the support of extended family and community.

But the assumption that women who are parents involuntarily are necessarily living any lesser a life than you and i are is incredibly elitist. Do i think the world should change so that all women get to choose? Absolutely. But those who aren't given the choice in the sense that we mean here -- and that is probably most women on the planet -- are not by definition dehumanized by this. It's arrogant to assume so.

One of my best friends -- a man -- just called. He didn't really want to have kids, but his wife did. He chose to have children in the sense that he didn't absolutely refuse. Well as things turned out, his wife's career took off in a big way. Guess who became the primary caretaker? This has been the case for over 14 years now. This guy is a genius. He is highly educated. He is emotionally healthy. All he has done other than parent for these many years is teach part-time. That's a contribution. But i am sure some people might think all that IQ power and education have gone to waste. i do not. He does not. In fact, he has loved every minute of it. His kids, especially, do not.

[evolveme]

I was half-way through with labor before I realized I was in it (5 centimeters dilated). She was born in under 2 hours. My obstetrician looked at me and said, "You need to be camped out on the hospital grounds the last two months of your next pregnancy. You're a natural breeder."

He really said that. I was twenty years-old. I knew enough to be mortified.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by evolveme

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

I'm not sure about insisting- I don't insist that other people agree with me and to me there is a definite difference between faith, belief, dogmatism and the perversion of religious beliefs to control others.

It's part of my own belief system that all life is sacred. I have loved very dearly a few people who had extremely bad - criminally terrible, unfeeling, thoughtless - mothers. But they still gave life - by choice - to people I have loved very much and I do personally consider that a sacred act on their part.

I also think in a few of those cases, abortion or giving the kid up for adoption would have been the better choice. I recently lost somebody I loved very much. Witnessing the pain of his childhood was the best argument I ever encountered for abortion. When parents are incapable of loving their kids, of refraining from abusing them, of abstaining from cruelty toward them, of refraining from drinking or drugging through their pregnancies or parenting, then abortion may well be the kindest thing a person could do for their would-be child. But I still consider the act of bringing a person into this world to be a sacred act and a sacrifice on its own. I don't think it erases terrible behavior.

I know that's part of *my* belief system and I don't have any desire to force that belief onto anybody else. I just hate seeing that belief attacked here as it was earlier when somebody else posted about their own spiritual beliefs about and appreciation for motherhood.

I think it's really easy from the outside to be derisive or dismissive about other people's spiritual or religious beliefs, and I hate to see that happen within this thread or in this community.

Yes, there are dangers when people dogmatize a belief in the sacredness of life or motherhood and then use that to implement laws that oppress.

I think there are also dangers in treating life and motherhood as entirely unsacred things. I think doing so leads to some really horrific ideologies and practices (slavery, the Holocaust, genocide - incidentally all situations in which the forced "breeding" of women has happened).

ps. when I use the word "sacred" it is from a religious/spiritual place. There are other words that an atheist might be more comfortable using. I think there are atheists who very much see the value of life, who can certainly recognize the difference between birth and death, who can see and understand how much is given in the creation of another human being. "Sacred" may be a religious word, but I'm pretty sure there are atheists who value the lives, experiences, sacrifices and hard work involved in carrying and giving birth to a child and/or raising one.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Nat

I think it's really easy from the outside to be derisive or dismissive about other people's spiritual or religious beliefs, and I hate to see that happen within this thread or in this community.

Natalie,

Just as in my response to your private question, my post was not a direct response to your post, although my thinking did evolve from it, and as I said to you privately, I appreciated your thoughts very much on a personal level. There was nothing "derisive" or "dismissive" in my words here, nor my intent. I meant only to speak to the other side of what damages women in terms of how patriarchy has labeled us for sole use as "breeders," and that is to discuss the slippery slope we encounter with the sacred mother archetype. It's a lot to hang our hopes on.

I am not in the practice of dismissing peoples' religious or spiritual beliefs (I believe this is truly rude), only in examining the results our belief systems have on our thinking and our lives.

Julie

[Nat]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Natalie,

Just as in my response to your private question, my post was not a direct response to your post, although my thinking did evolve from it, and as I said to you privately, I appreciated your thoughts very much on a personal level. There was nothing "derisive" or "dismissive" in my words here, nor my intent. I meant only to speak to the other side of what damages women in terms of how patriarchy has labeled us for sole use as "breeders," and that is to discuss the slippery slope we encounter with the sacred mother archetype. It's a lot to hang our hopes on.

I am not in the practice of dismissing peoples' religious or spiritual beliefs (I believe this is truly rude), only in examining the results our belief systems have on our thinking and our lives.

Julie

My response to your post was similar to your response to mine.

"my post was not a direct response to your post, although my thinking did evolve from it"

I quoted you and responded, but my response more evolved from yours than rebutted it.

I have tried very hard to be clear in both my posts what I do believe is sacred about creating life, while not slipping down the slippery slope you reference.

I may be a bit sensitive about this subject. The majority of my friends are highly intelligent atheists who like to pick everything apart - especially other people's religious beliefs - and I think it's an area where i'm experiencing some level of soreness/fatigue. The honoring of life, honoring the sacrifices involved with creating life, those things aren't so much of an intellectual-debate-type thing for me. So maybe I shouldn't have brought them up in this thread. (I do worship a mother goddess, for what it's worth).

Thanks for your thoughts, Julie. I really heart your brain. I was not intending to say *you* were being dismissive or derisive - more that I hoped things weren't going to go down that path. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.