Open Letter: Dear Femme

[blush]

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by blush

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by blush

This is my quote for the day.

And I may steal it and use it and never give you credit.

I was seriously considering making it my signature line.

Originally Posted by blush

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

Commence thread stalking.

I'm glad you spoke to this aspect of "standing in a community." I've seen a bit of this in the realz. A femme attends local butch/femme meetings, begins to date another femme, or a male (of any variety) and suddenly other folks start to question her presence in the community. As if who she is bangin' has anything to do with her sense of community belonging, or deep affiliation.

What? We can only check one box now?

Originally Posted by apretty

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

Sexbits.

I blush.

[bonne-maman]

Oh man, (oops)

I have been reading the posts and loving the energy, words hadn't quite come to the tips of my fingertips. But, the thread has obviously entered my subconscious.

I just remembered I dreamt last night that I was dressed as a babygirl at the Michigan Women's Music Festival.

That must be the weirdest fucking convergence of femme, feminist, girl, female subtex.

There were other babygirls here and there at the Fest as well. At one point someone was trying to ask me if I needed help getting out of there, as I obviously didn't belong (to her). I looked at her coldly, and said, "No." You see, I was dressed as a babygirl, but certainly wasn't feeling one inside, and certainly had no butch lookin after me. I was kind of a babygirl ethnographer on a mission. Observing how the festies reacted to me and the other babygirls.

I had the cutest little gingham outfit.

Anyhow, a tad about me, just to add to the diverse-titty of us. I came out as a lesbian-feminist in 1979 in one of the many super-insulated, almost separatist, lesbian-feminist communities around the country at the time. Three years later I discovered the word femme, and knew it was who I was. I found this word in the middle of a worldwide protest movement against long range nuclear missiles, when I was sleeping many nights in a lesbo-constructed protest structure on the grounds of a corporation that built the guidance systems for these missiles. I knew femme was me because I did things like: 1) painted my bedroom in the lesbo collective houseshold pink 2) decorated said room with my babydolls from my childhood 3) wore a collection of thrift store dresses, and skirts against my hairy legs amidst the jeans and political t-shirts 4) threw tea parties and garden parties for the grumpy lesbian masses.

Anyhow, all of this was tolerated by the androgynous masses, probably because I did it in a butchless, asexual vacuum. The femme who I am has always been just that, who I am.

I think my biggest struggle with inclusion/feeling sidelined on these sites has been the anti-lesbian sentiment which is sometimes subtle and sometimes oh-so-very Overt.

And, being on these sites has been an opportunity to enrich myself and my femmeness in so many ways. To be friends with girls/women/femmes who wear makeup and high heels has been profoundly moving and affirming. You all have always scared the shit outta me!!!!

[Arwen]

So I'm late to this party. Bite me. I will be multi-quoting in purple and using emoticons. Double bite me.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?

Sometimes I think it is a way to silence ourselves. I think I try to force myself into the "expected roles". And you know what? It hurts. It doesn't feel good to do something or say something simply because that's what "our community" does or expects of me.

But when I don't toe the "party" line, I am in danger of being ostracized. And that hurts too. Sometimes more than doing what is expected.

So do I to the expected party line or do I become a and make my own way?

It's an ongoing struggle.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

So guilty of this but more forgiving when it is from someone I have become friends with OR that I have seen post "meatier" posts as well. Those that post only fluff are often looked down on by those that don't.

Why is that? Do those that post only fluff take away from who I am in any way? Do their words and colors and emoticons diminish me personally? The concept of "femme" as a whole?

No. Not even one iota. What FemmeA says in purple, italic, Georgia font about being a babygirl has NOTHING to do with me. It, like the color of her font, doesn't rub off.

So I need to check my own "party" line at the door. I am as guilty of doing to that femme as what has been done to me in an effort to silence or censure me.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Ha! Perhaps at times I do. Other times I get incredibly frustrated when my non-demur/polite mouth results in anger from others. I make it a point to take care of me and speak my needs (not rudely or aggressively) and at times have felt frowned upon for this.

We've talked about this, I think. I am seen as rude and aggressive quite often because of my very dogmatic way of expressing myself. Because I prefer to be honest and upfront, that is often seen as "mean."

I think being called "mean" is a way of trying to force me into someone else's box. So I am learning to stand on my own two feet (at 48...you think I would have learned this by now) and not worry about it. But it still hurts.

I've learned a lot specifically from you, A. Because of you. Through you. From you. You have been an amazing teacher even when you didn't know it.

Originally Posted by June

In June's dream world, which is very different from the Barbie variety, what they will find is a full spectrum of Femme-ness (c) that includes all of us regardless of our skill level or presentation. I want to say to them "Hey, Baby Femme! Wear that damn baseball hat backwards if you want! Don't be afraid to change that tire and brag about it! Fix that friggin' sink! Win at Pool because you've got the Mad Skillz!"

Sometimes, the stereotyping threads, to me, are fun simply because they point out how different we all are. Why not start a thread here that addresses this very thing, June? That femme is self-defined. Period.

It is not "who I'm boinking" defined.
It is not "what color is my lipstick" defined.
It is not "how long is my dildo" defined.
It is not "how polite am I in public" defined.
It is not "how short my skirts are" defined.
and so on.

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

i choose the girly things FOR me, no one else. whenever i've decided to be without Lovers i didnt stop with the girly stuff. it's MY stuff. it's ME. it's not an act for someone else.

my lesbian friends used to ream me for being myself all the time. we're not friends anymore. if my femme friends begin to do the same i'll happily do without them as well. i love my friends but without them, i'm just fine.

Amen. Just A-freaking-men (or woman?). This was very well said. I particularly liked "It's not an act for someone else."

Originally Posted by Lynn

I reread an old post of mine on another site, replete with these apologies, just today and I wanted to vomit. In life, as well as on line, I still haven't found how to be as strong an advocate for myself as I am for everyone else.

That, Lynn, is what I call a journey. You are on one. I'm on one. Mine started in 2006(I think... maybe 2003) of acknowledging and exploring the term femme. Hang in there. And don't stop apologizing until you feel like it. Even that is yours and no one gets to define you.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

My favorite Queer As Folk quote? Brian Kinney - No regrets, no apologies, no excuses. Fabulous outlook!

See! Another reason I love you. You give great quote!

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

Anyhow, a tad about me, just to add to the diverse-titty of us. I came out as a lesbian-feminist in 1979 in one of the many super-insulated, almost separatist, lesbian-feminist communities around the country at the time.
Snip really good stuff
I think my biggest struggle with inclusion/feeling sidelined on these sites has been the anti-lesbian sentiment which is sometimes subtle and sometimes oh-so-very Overt.

And, being on these sites has been an opportunity to enrich myself and my femmeness in so many ways. To be friends with girls/women/femmes who wear makeup and high heels has been profoundly moving and affirming. You all have always scared the shit outta me!!!!

I am one who has been overtly anti-lesbian because of past hurts. I do not id as a lesbian for a lot of reasons I have gone diarrhea-mouth over on the Dash site. I take ownership here and now of allowing those specific women (because Gods know it has not been all lesbians) who hurt me to color my view of the word lesbian.

And your last line? Me too! Seriously.

P.S. Did you come out in upstate NY? Because those were some hardcore dyke-feminists.

And isn't it odd. I'm fine with calling myself a dyke, but not a lesbian. Must explore that.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by blush

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

We are both subsumed and erased in turns.

This in itself is the crux of the reason behind my decision to write this letter to all of you. I wrote something once about how I do not see myself as "invisible." I am not an invisible femme. Whether or not I am seen is merely a determination as to the clarity in the eyesight of others.

I intend, only, to stand tall enough so as not to be missed should they endeavor to look.

Originally Posted by apretty

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

I hope more ladypeople come in here and read this!

[evolveme]

Dear Bonne,

babygirl ethnographer on a mission.

You just fuckin' made my goddamned day.

I you like you don't know what,

e

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Arwen

[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]

I am one who has been overtly anti-lesbian because of past hurts. I do not id as a lesbian for a lot of reasons I have gone diarrhea-mouth over on the Dash site. I take ownership here and now of allowing those specific women (because Gods know it has not been all lesbians) who hurt me to color my view of the word lesbian.

And your last line? Me too! Seriously.

P.S. Did you come out in upstate NY? Because those were some hardcore dyke-feminists.

Arwen, thank you so much for acknowledging anti-lesbian stuff. I have not experienced this with you, ever, but having you acknowledge this affirms my experience with others, which is comforting to me. And, I came out in Minneapolis, but I think our community here in the late 70's and 80's was very similar to the upstate NY community. Thank god many of us finally found our perspective, and senses of humor, again.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think it may be that the competition is fear-based. Not just fear of butch as resource but fear of not being enough.

[snip]

This, to me, has nothing to do with butch-femme and everything to do with SuperId, Id, and Ego.

And, for what it's worth, I think this is very apropos to the dynamic and evolution of this thread.

I agree strongly. All of this, "I am not good enough" crap is part of the human condition that we play out in all environments in our lives at times. We have to work at acknowledging ourselves as whole and good all of our lives.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Dear Bonne,

babygirl ethnographer on a mission.

You just fuckin' made my goddamned day.

I you like you don't know what,

e

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddamned day when you say shit like this!

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddmaned day when you say shit like this!

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?



*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddmaned day when you say shit like this!

I love it when we curse.

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Diva

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory?

Diva, I could never be friends with someone just because of any one thing......and I don't expect it from anyone else either. I just think if ya don't wanna be friends with someone, ya don't, like, point it all out and such. "if you can't say something good about your neighbor, don't say nothin at all"

Originally Posted by evolveme

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?

*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

Oh yeah, good stuff there e. This is back to the whole id/ego thing. Yeah, we all represent to each other what we fear and feel inadequate about in ourselves. This is why diversity in any situation brings such strength to all. If we can love and be comfortable with people who are not just different, but who we are uncomfortable with or fear, then our inner being type-self is getting super-strong. Ok, this lesbian-speak is freakin me out.

Originally Posted by Diva

I love it when we curse.

I fucking love it too Diva.

[bonne-maman]

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.

Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

[Diva]

I do feel like some of the reasons we push each other down is to climb on top of each other in order to reach some fantasy superior position. To what end?

Are we afraid we'll suffocate? Is it ~ forgive me ~ "every man for himself" kind of mentality? Because frankly, I don't get that. But I do believe it is fear~based.

And I guess the older I get, I just don't have TIME for it. I don't have time for Pot/Kettle stuff. It's that stones/glass houses, heat/kitchen thing.

And yes.....I can be catty and judgemental and I'm so not perfect....and it just kills me (not really) how we get so whiney when we are criticized about our behavior and then go and do the same damn thing! What manner of heinous fuckery is that?

That being said, I don't think femmes have the corner of the market on THAT.

Now. Will I get shot down for being brutally honest about this? Maybe. But I can tell You this: I have no problem loading the rifle and handing it to You. Fire away.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Diva

it just kills me (not really) how we get so whiney when we are criticized about our behavior and then go and do the same damn thing! What manner of heinous fuckery is that?

I so agree with this, Diva. But I think those that do not react to the criticism are simply not buying into the "corrections" we offer. They are living their lives in their own way and to their own drummers. That may be why there is more than one band.

I wonder when I criticize someone...am I hoping they will correct their ways? Toe my "party" line? I have to think on that a bit more. I do know that my own response to open, honest critique (and there is a difference, to me, between critique and criticism) is to bounce it off a few others. If I get buy in from those I trust, then I am apt to listen to the critique.

If I don't? Grin, well I continue on as I have and let the criticism roll on down the old back.

I do hope no one "shoots" you down. I think your opinion and worldview is as valuable as the rest here.

[Boots13]

Dear E;
I love your style ! And certainly the
head-on way you broach subjects that seem
to be "blind spots" in the vision test. This thread
is an eye-opening education regarding the Femme
"smackdown" by way of Butch, Patriarchal,
Societal and the worst (from my perspective)
the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's
that "friendly fire" , being shanked
by a stiletto, that has always perplexed me.

We are all fighting mortal combat in an effort
to be seen and not steamrolled into a homogeny
of expectation. But it pains me to think that femmes
feel they have been relegated to "Best Supporting
Actress" in our symbiotic relationships (Femme - Butch)
when the meat and potatoes of validation is : see
me for who I am.

I love this thread, and I have much to recognize. Perhaps
this is my first lesson in understanding Butchbull
behavior in the Femme china shop (not meant to
infer Femmes are delicate) as well as the snares and pitfalls
of Femme V Femme.

Lambaste me if you will, but I'm hanging around the halls ...this thread is good stuff !

signed :
Excuse me Waiter, there's a butch in my soup....
Boots

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Boots13

and the worst (from my perspective)
the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's
that "friendly fire" , being shanked
by a stiletto, that has always perplexed me.
[/COLOR]

What a great post, Boots.

And yes, we do cannibalize each other, don't we? All of us (not just Femmes), but in our quarters and what with Relational Aggression it can be so...nasty.

As it is socially acceptable, and even encouraged as a rite of passage, for masculine creatures to rough-it-out as a means to work-it-out, out-right aggressions are hardly frowned upon in the school yard. But girls are supposed to "be nice and look sweet."

So what do we do with our naturally arising feelings of aggression? (We are animals after all.) We have devised elaborate inter-social methods of torturing and ostracizing one another.

The cruel word spoken in clever jest. (plausible deniablity)

Unkind Gossips.

Out-casting. (a very fickle art)

And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

There are more.

We've all shanked a lady with a fine stiletto, whether we wear them or not.

[blush]

So Goof and I have been talking about this thread all morning over coffee.

And I prattled onandonandon about how the femmes will trot into "masculine-space" discussions (ie--the Butch Identity thread or the Braveheart thread) and throw our pennies down, but in "femme-space" threads, it is rare that the attention is reciprocated.

It took 13 posts in here before little man posted.

In a "masculine-space" thread, usually the 3rd or 4th post is a femme.

Why?

Now, Goof pointed out that he doesn't generally post in femme-spaces because he thinks we need this space without interference. Which I totally get. BUT would we rather have the support or the space?

And now I'm being told I have to go because my breakfast is getting cold.

[Arwen]

Osting from the laundrymat where I'm doing my girly lacy things and no flannel or jeans of course.

Just read this in my email and thought it added to this thought.


"Your real security is yourself. You know you can do it, and they can't ever take that away from you."
-Mae West

That is what we do. We bring all of us butch and femme.

Forgive lack of pretty colors and font. Grin

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...

Originally Posted by Boots13

the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's that "friendly fire"

apropos terminology. i really like that. thank you for adding it to the bin i keep my brain in.

there's been talk here of duality that reaches into me right now and has for a while. i dislike the greater vs. lesser paradigms laid on some relationships, hetero/homo/trans/poly/inter sexual and so on ad nauseum. it deprives any supposed "weaker" partner of strength and capability as well as leeching the possibility for sensitivity from the so-called "stronger".

i'm also fixated on the "house divided" mentality of part of our community. i don't remember the exact wording of the saying. something about a house divided against itself not being able to stand. is some of our disapproval of one another due to an ingrained sort of self-hatred provided by a larger hetero-centric community at large? do we try to look and act like the "enemy" (not a literal reference, please don't send mail) so that we can both participate in the superiority mindset as well as fly under the radar. you know the drill: well at least i'm not like those people. i'm normal. no one would even know if it weren't for __________.

there's a book called brazen femme: queering femininity by elizabeth ruth that came to mind when i was rereading the thread this morning. when speaking of a woman the author is calling the quantum femme. it's a long quote but it's a good one:

She's perpetually stuck in a time-warp between a neon bright high flashing eclipse and absolute invisibility. Can anyone see her?

She's here to remind the galaxy that it is possible to be more than one half of any duality, more than just nd extension, an opposite: male/female. Rational/emotional. Butch/femme. So, she's nobody's princess, baby doll, babe. Her ass is her own until she needs a good spanking. Even then, she's nobody's slut but the slut inside you.

Moving in waves - not steps - her posture is regal. Her shoulders are back, she wears the dress before the dress wears her. Or maybe not. Maybe she can't crawl out of bed some days, can't choose the proper costume. Quantum femme knows costumes and weapons are one in the same and she knows all too well the rolling pictures in some minds, of a buxom, tight-waisted milkmaid. Ready-made-to-order. You'd like to think she'll eat you for supper. Lick. Suck. Devour. Let you off the hook? In your dreams.

The truth is she can make you comfortable in your skin even when you shouldn't be, and she wears great pain. There's a reason you'll never see a quantum femme cry in public. Her acid rain tears would flood the planet, crate a burning wave, tsunami undertow that threatens to swallow everything...

So beware. Up close, microscopically, she might not be what you envision. She might shock with her unkempt reality...You can't label her neuroses, identify her predilections, or even predict what she would eat for breakfast. She's slippery, gliding through expectations like spilt mercury dancing down your leg, curdling and separating. She's been many people in many places but somehow always the same.

She's attracted to power because it's like looking in the mirror...Don't touch too softly or she won't notice, and don't wait for an invitation...You can't begin to imagine what sadomasochistic lifetimes she's consente to. Or, those she didn't. You can't know her by defining her parameters, testing her tolerance or crossing her boundaries. Quantum femme has a voracious appetite for the truth and the truth hurts most of all.

If you want to win her favor don't spread out across her mattress like you're waiting for a hot meal. Or preen publicly like a peacock then privately hide in her breasts, an ostrich burying your head in the sand. She's already somebody's mother, siser and wife. She's put in her volunteer hours and doated to charity. She doesn't want to demand that you make her come - she wants to dare you. Make her come so she can go away, leave herself with the pounding pounding of your hand, fist, anything inside her center. Let the vibrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrations on her clit stop time.

She's woman enough to give it up for you and astronomical enough to make each explosion feel new. She won't break or fall into pieces. She knows no singular force strong enough to reach her now...She doesn't crave picket fences, station wagons, or diamond rings. Her people are flawed beyond repair so she's had to learn to love and hate simultaneously. Don't be surprised by the company she keeps.

you've no idea how much i wish i'd said something this remarkable. (or how much i wish i felt the confidence of this quantum femme on at least a semi-weekly basis!)

while i was working the other day i saw a woman who epitomized these words and found myself wanting to follow her home and sit at her feet for the rest of my life, if only to understand what it was that she knew that i've never managed to comprehend completely.

so many lessons. so little room in the bin