Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

No I get that. I guess I was more along the lines of the transition boys had to make into men - sometimes it took up to a year of being separate from the group to think about the changes that would be expected from them, the changes their body would be going through and the changes in responsibility. Like say the Bull roarer ceremony at the end of that period. After that, they no longer lived with their mothers. They were always male. they were always who their personalities were. it's just an acknowledgement that things will change socially/recognition wise.

Or a wedding ceremony - you may have been living together for several years before the wedding. Now comes the legal commitment with all the majour differences than can entail - legally.

Of course the person and who that person is has always been there in both examples. There's just a formal recognition and the leading up period of preparation for formally acknowledged differences.

I do get what you mean though.
as much as I can, like. It's not something within my experience that particular journey. I have my own "transitions" that were always present, but nothing of that flavour so I can't pretend to "get" it in the way it's experienced by those who go through that particular kind.

Ok, even though I said I got your post that I referenced, I think I misinterpreted it and thought I understood when I didn't fully. For some reason I wasn't thinking ritualistic in the same sense as you've described it here. That makes more sense to me when you put it that way, and I think I can somewhat agree on some level. I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement. I'm finding myself more inclined to seeing it like a coming of age ceremony like in you're first example, but I think I'm stuck on thinking one can have only one such ceremony. Then again, looking at my life I can already think of two (one at 13 and one which seemed to be ongoing between the ages of 19 and 23)...and now I'm arguing with myself lol I think I'll mull it over and come back later because I have something else to say, but I'm not quite sure what it is yet.

Thanks to all who've posted in response.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement (...) and now I'm arguing with myself lol

lol! well, in that we are very much alike!!

[Jaques]

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on. Therefore - though a transguy, being born with female genitals, I will not deny I am physically female. I can never, by way of taking testosterone or the operations I had to alter my body to that which felt comfortable, be a biological male. Its much easier to accept that, since there is nothing more I can do about it.
I consider myself male in essence, i.e. I feel/dress/behave in a male fashion, though there are female characteristics, as there are with any bio male. Therefore, I accept myself, as I am and live as male - easier now I look masculine - if anyone finds out I was born female, i have no problem with them knowing and am happy to answer any questions they may have.

When I thought I was butch lesbian, i did have a problem - it felt very wrong - so my take on this question, is that one should go with what's right for them - it can take time, sometimes a lifetime to discover what that is...............and its often a painful journey

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Jaques

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on.

Some folks are born with genitals that are confusing to the people filling out the birth certificate. Sometimes procedures take place to remove the confusion, there is a fifty percent chance that the results of that procedure, will match the infant's mind later in life. Not every FTM is truly a female transitioning to male.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by Liam

Some folks are born with genitals that are confusing to the people filling out the birth certificate. Sometimes procedures take place to remove the confusion, there is a fifty percent chance that the results of that procedure, will match the infant's mind later in life. Not every FTM is truly a female transitioning to male.

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Jaques

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Liam

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

Liam, that first sentence isn't very kind or welcoming. Please make an effort to keep your comments positive. If you have any questions, you are welcome to write via PM.

Thank you.

Thinker (moderating)

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by Liam

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

.................yes i know that -and 4 people thanked me for my post (thankyou) no wonder you call yourself "Mr crankypants" - lol!

[citybutch]

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

For ME, sex and gender are different... and there is a rainbow of expression for both... Male/female is a binary illusion... language and culture set us up to squeeze into one box or the other...

Originally Posted by Jaques

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by citybutch

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

....................yes, my spelling certainly needs a lot to be desired doesnt it?
Whether intersexed is the preferred term, im not sure but it means the same.

For ME, sex and gender are different... and there is a rainbow of expression for both... Male/female is a binary illusion... language and culture set us up to squeeze into one box or the other...

I think sexuality and gender are different - and, depending on your outlook, everything we are is an illusion brought about by our own minds/energy - but again thats a matter of personal belief............

[Liam]

Originally Posted by citybutch

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

The term hermaphrodite is a stigmatizing and misleading term, it implies that a person is both male and female, which is impossible physiologically. One can possess parts of what is consider male or female, but one is neither completely male or female. It is an offensive word to the intersexed.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jaques

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

Actually we were talking Male ID"d Butches and FTM, not necessarily V.S. I do hope you will read the entire thread. Welcome to the thread.

[Jaques]

forgive me for "wandering" in the thread - intersexed is a relatively new word for hermaphradite - when i used it, it was not meant to be used in a derogatory way, but i am always happy to be educated - its how we learn - I am learning a lot from this site ................. its an education in itself

[Cowboi]

hermaphroditism- condition where both testicular and ovarian tissue exit in the same person, the testicular tissue containing seminiferous tubules or spermatozoa in the ovarian tissue containing corpora albicantia. A chomasomal abnormality.


psuedohermaphrodite- a congenital condition in which a person has either male or female gonads but external genitalia of the opposite sex, or both.




pseudohermaphroditism- a condition in which a exhibits the somatic characteristics of both sexes through possessing, the phsysical characteristics of either males or females.

[Cowboi]

Originally Posted by Cowboi

hermaphroditism- condition where both testicular and ovarian tissue exit in the same person, the testicular tissue containing seminiferous tubules or spermatozoa in the ovarian tissue containing corpora albicantia. A chomasomal abnormality.


psuedohermaphrodite- a congenital condition in which a person has either male or female gonads but external genitalia of the opposite sex, or both.




pseudohermaphroditism- a condition in which a exhibits the somatic characteristics of both sexes through possessing, the phsysical characteristics of either males or females.

In the first paragraph the word exit should be exist.

[Corkey]

While I am pleased that we have a conversation about Intersexed individuals, this thread isn't about them.
Nor is it about Female ID'd Butches. It is about Male ID'd and FTM's, the differences that we see about the two id's and how we have some of the same issues. Don't know where we veered off topic.