Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

bing bing bing we have a winner!!!! Precisely.

woohoo! I get the giant stuffed panda!!!

We've even had some guys who have "transitioned" here in this very thread who claim they don't see themselves as male despite the fact that they've "transitioned" (sorry for the quotations, I just dislike that word) physically and even changed their gender legally.

see that, I'm more familiar with. The term I was told by a few I know/knew was FtQ/M
"transitioning" to their own queerly defined sex/gender (just matching things up better). I personally like the word if it's used in a ritual sense rather than a medical sense as I've known people to "make transitions" to very different stages of their life to celebrate achievements or what not. And running the gauntlet (transition) to their desired "state." that doesn't even sound quite right either. nevermind.

They use FtM as messy imprecise short hand. I'm not saying everyone does, but the individuals I'm thinking of did.

I'm by no means not trying to say I know much, I'm only trying to... ah... contextualise my knowledge/ignorance divide so people know where I'm coming from. Reflexivity

I'm learning. Thanks for the patience to everyone so far in allowing me to participate in this space.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

see that, I'm more familiar with. The term I was told by a few I know/knew was FtQ/M
"transitioning" to their own queerly defined sex/gender (just matching things up better). I personally like the word if it's used in a ritual sense rather than a medical sense as I've known people to "make transitions" to very different stages of their life to celebrate achievements or what not. And running the gauntlet (transition) to their desired "state." that doesn't even sound quite right either. nevermind.

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

[Stearns]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

I get what you are saying here, Ender, and if our society were different there would be no 'need' to label anyone anything other than human. However, b/c labels can convey important information about us that we want others to know, I will continue to call myself a transman, rather than simply man. I want others to know that I am firmly rooted in the LGBT community and, further, that there is no shame or embarrassment (and nothing inherently wrong, except in the dysphoric sense) in being born biologically female.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

You have a remarkable way of "being" and expressing yourself. I was nowhere near this evolved at 25, dude. Seriously. I've enjoyed reading you here.

I appreciate you explaining this because it helps me more fully understand when male ID'd folks say they have no plans, no need to transition. I can get that now. So thank you.

I will also say that I wish you well in all that you are doing to get to where you want to be physically......wherever that may be for you. Should you end up in a new "suit" someday, I believe you really will love it and know a peace unimaginable.

Thanks again, young man.

Thinker (site member)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

No I get that. I guess I was more along the lines of the transition boys had to make into men - sometimes it took up to a year of being separate from the group to think about the changes that would be expected from them, the changes their body would be going through and the changes in responsibility. Like say the Bull roarer ceremony at the end of that period. After that, they no longer lived with their mothers. They were always male. they were always who their personalities were. it's just an acknowledgement that things will change socially/recognition wise.

Or a wedding ceremony - you may have been living together for several years before the wedding. Now comes the legal commitment with all the majour differences than can entail - legally.

Of course the person and who that person is has always been there in both examples. There's just a formal recognition and the leading up period of preparation for formally acknowledged differences.

I do get what you mean though.
as much as I can, like. It's not something within my experience that particular journey. I have my own "transitions" that were always present, but nothing of that flavour so I can't pretend to "get" it in the way it's experienced by those who go through that particular kind.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

No I get that. I guess I was more along the lines of the transition boys had to make into men - sometimes it took up to a year of being separate from the group to think about the changes that would be expected from them, the changes their body would be going through and the changes in responsibility. Like say the Bull roarer ceremony at the end of that period. After that, they no longer lived with their mothers. They were always male. they were always who their personalities were. it's just an acknowledgement that things will change socially/recognition wise.

Or a wedding ceremony - you may have been living together for several years before the wedding. Now comes the legal commitment with all the majour differences than can entail - legally.

Of course the person and who that person is has always been there in both examples. There's just a formal recognition and the leading up period of preparation for formally acknowledged differences.

I do get what you mean though.
as much as I can, like. It's not something within my experience that particular journey. I have my own "transitions" that were always present, but nothing of that flavour so I can't pretend to "get" it in the way it's experienced by those who go through that particular kind.

Ok, even though I said I got your post that I referenced, I think I misinterpreted it and thought I understood when I didn't fully. For some reason I wasn't thinking ritualistic in the same sense as you've described it here. That makes more sense to me when you put it that way, and I think I can somewhat agree on some level. I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement. I'm finding myself more inclined to seeing it like a coming of age ceremony like in you're first example, but I think I'm stuck on thinking one can have only one such ceremony. Then again, looking at my life I can already think of two (one at 13 and one which seemed to be ongoing between the ages of 19 and 23)...and now I'm arguing with myself lol I think I'll mull it over and come back later because I have something else to say, but I'm not quite sure what it is yet.

Thanks to all who've posted in response.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement (...) and now I'm arguing with myself lol

lol! well, in that we are very much alike!!

[Jaques]

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on. Therefore - though a transguy, being born with female genitals, I will not deny I am physically female. I can never, by way of taking testosterone or the operations I had to alter my body to that which felt comfortable, be a biological male. Its much easier to accept that, since there is nothing more I can do about it.
I consider myself male in essence, i.e. I feel/dress/behave in a male fashion, though there are female characteristics, as there are with any bio male. Therefore, I accept myself, as I am and live as male - easier now I look masculine - if anyone finds out I was born female, i have no problem with them knowing and am happy to answer any questions they may have.

When I thought I was butch lesbian, i did have a problem - it felt very wrong - so my take on this question, is that one should go with what's right for them - it can take time, sometimes a lifetime to discover what that is...............and its often a painful journey

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Jaques

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on.

Some folks are born with genitals that are confusing to the people filling out the birth certificate. Sometimes procedures take place to remove the confusion, there is a fifty percent chance that the results of that procedure, will match the infant's mind later in life. Not every FTM is truly a female transitioning to male.

[Cowboi]

hermaphroditism- condition where both testicular and ovarian tissue exit in the same person, the testicular tissue containing seminiferous tubules or spermatozoa in the ovarian tissue containing corpora albicantia. A chomasomal abnormality.


psuedohermaphrodite- a congenital condition in which a person has either male or female gonads but external genitalia of the opposite sex, or both.




pseudohermaphroditism- a condition in which a exhibits the somatic characteristics of both sexes through possessing, the phsysical characteristics of either males or females.