Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

LOL , you are something else But I quess you are the authority of Lesbians cause you have been one for 30 years ..Next time I have a guestion about Lesbians I sure will come find you ...... Until then I would not book a cruise on Olivia Cruises anytime soon .. Just sayin

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Billy

LOL , you are something else But I quess you are the authority of Lesbians cause you have been one for 30 years ..Next time I have a guestion about Lesbians I sure will come find you ...... Until then I would not book a cruise on Olivia Cruises anytime soon .. Just sayin

Well I am a big fat Lesbian and I wouldn't book either.
To *me* the act of turning away a butch woman or an MTF (which means she is a woman) is not the act of a loving community.

Community means all of us (to me).

Olivia Cruiselines must not put a lot of faith in Lesbians if they are going to speak for the faceless masses and deem them as "upset" by....what? I don't even know. I also feel like any ftm folk wanting to go on this kind of cruise is not living steath as a male full time, but rather still very connected to the community that was their home for so many years,.

I have a super hard time separating Lesbian from Queer. Trans from Queer. Gay from Queer. To me it's all of us for each other. Not all of us against each other.

I cannot begin to examine what Blaze must have felt as a Lesbian on the dock that day, being refused entry. I close my eyes and try to visualize myself there, and the end result is only tears. That act of exclusion of a Lesbian is unconscionable.

[Toughy]

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

I didn't make fun of Bully .....And there where alot more folks on here having the same issue I was , trying to get the point across , so if you want to call Me out and look past the others , that is your choice and I have know problem with that ...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Toughy

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

Thanks Toughy. I was thinking the same thing.

I spent a long time before I even posted in this thread trying to understand what was going on. I then spent a lot of time on my initial post trying to cover the issue and ask a few genuine questions.

Then when Snow pointed out there was a lot of upset that I wasn't up to speed on I went over to the other channel to try and figure things out. It took me at least a half an hour to even find the thread and another half hour to read the thread in its entirety. I saw the legitimate concerns raised over there. I also saw Transmen over there- who also are members of this community- saying they fully support lesbians having cruises but if there is going to be a butch femme event they do feel they have a right to be welcome. I completely agreed. I also saw those raising concerns being called liars and their integrity questioned.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time reading up to understand the issues and have asked genuine questions and tried to understand. I haven't called anyone any names, hurled any insults or accused anyone of anything. I have gotten a lot of nasty insults and been told I am engaging in us vs them when there isn't a shred of evidence of that in any of my posts.

Wow, I'm so glad I have spent so much of my time trying to understand only to be insulted, accused and made fun of.

[waxnrope]

just saying ...

[Gayla]

BullDog - You may not see that you've said anything that anyone could take negatively, and I may have even almost agreed with that on some level, until the little snarky line at the end of your post.

You made a comment implying that non-lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. You made a comment about how the thread was off topic and we were talking about things we shouldn't be discussing (which is something you do in a lot of the threads you post in). You made comments about how you were insulted and called names and implied that you had somehow become a victim in this.

I've seen you do, and say, most of these things in other threads that became heated at some point. It's obvious that you have a different interpretation of things than many of us here. But rather than agree to disagree and continue the discussion, these thread turn into Bully vs. almost everyone else and end up nothing more than a bunch of passive aggressive snark being tossed back and forth until everyone loses interest and just goes away.

I'm really tired of watching good threads die.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by gayla

BullDog - You may not see that you've said anything that anyone could take negatively, and I may have even almost agreed with that on some level, until the little snarky line at the end of your post.

You made a comment implying that non-lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. You made a comment about how the thread was off topic and we were talking about things we shouldn't be discussing (which is something you do in a lot of the threads you post in). You made comments about how you were insulted and called names and implied that you had somehow become a victim in this.

I've seen you do, and say, most of these things in other threads that became heated at some point. It's obvious that you have a different interpretation of things than many of us here. But rather than agree to disagree and continue the discussion, these thread turn into Bully vs. almost everyone else and end up nothing more than a bunch of passive aggressive snark being tossed back and forth until everyone loses interest and just goes away.

I'm really tired of watching good threads die.

You are seriously accusing me of snark?

I never said non lesbians shouldn't be discussing the issue. People were telling me- whose been a lesbian for over 30 years- that I wouldn't be welcome on a lesbian cruise. I find that preposterous based on my experience and then non lesbians get nasty and mock me. That is what I was referring to when I said non lesbians seem to now think they are the experts.

The only thing I said was off topic was when people were hurling nasty comments at me- that adds nothing to a conversation.

Passive aggressive snark? Really? Not that you would do anything like that- like keep referring to me in the Zombie thread.

I am not a victim. I am being treated like shit for no good reason. I've put in the time to try and understand. That is apparent to some people. I have better things to do with my time than continue to be insulted.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Well I am a big fat Lesbian and I wouldn't book either.
To *me* the act of turning away a butch woman or an MTF (which means she is a woman) is not the act of a loving community.

Community means all of us (to me).

Olivia Cruiselines must not put a lot of faith in Lesbians if they are going to speak for the faceless masses and deem them as "upset" by....what? I don't even know. I also feel like any ftm folk wanting to go on this kind of cruise is not living steath as a male full time, but rather still very connected to the community that was their home for so many years,.

I have a super hard time separating Lesbian from Queer. Trans from Queer. Gay from Queer. To me it's all of us for each other. Not all of us against each other.

I cannot begin to examine what Blaze must have felt as a Lesbian on the dock that day, being refused entry. I close my eyes and try to visualize myself there, and the end result is only tears. That act of exclusion of a Lesbian is unconscionable.

Olivia is NOT a community. It's a business that provides travel services.....cruises.....targeted toward lesbians with disposable income. Good grief. Lets stop confusing business and community. I promise they understand the demographics of their target consumers. Sometimes lesbians just want to be with lesbians.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I must of misread somewhere along the lines but I am pretty sure this all blew up cause someone said that the opinions were lesbianphobic. Till Organic's post which was moderated, no one had..

hmmm.

Before that, it was a discussion with a whole lot of opinions SOME people did not like them and foudn them to be lesbianphobic .

True story..

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Olivia is NOT a community. It's a business that provides travel services.....cruises.....targeted toward lesbians with disposable income. Good grief. Lets stop confusing business and community. I promise they understand the demographics of their target consumers. Sometimes lesbians just want to be with lesbians.

as a lesbian, i get to call them my community.
i'm ok with that and stand by it.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

as a lesbian, i get to call them my community.
i'm ok with that and stand by it.

I'm not sure how any for-profit business is part of any community other than the business community. Providing services for a fee and calling that service community makes no sense. My community doesn't make me pay lots of money to participate.

Could you clarify how that works?

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm not sure how any for-profit business is part of any community other than the business community. Providing services for a fee and calling that service community makes no sense. My community doesn't make me pay lots of money to participate.

Could you clarify how that works?

Lets try this... I pay to get into lesbian Events sometimes upwards of $100. Now if that isn't "paying" for a service to a lesbian event then hmm I don't know what to call it. To me that doesn't make it right or wrong. If you like the services here or there and want to be able to do more things.. Don't you pay for that upgrade? I went to the Bash in Vegas.. I payed to be apart of their services/events. I went to the Reunion in Little Rock and yes I too paid for the Event. That cost me money to be apart of a COMMUNITY I love so very much. I would do it over and over again.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Strappie

Lets try this... I pay to get into lesbian Events sometimes upwards of $100. Now if that isn't "paying" for a service to a lesbian event then hmm I don't know what to call it. To me that doesn't make it right or wrong. If you like the services here or there and want to be able to do more things.. Don't you pay for that upgrade? I went to the Bash in Vegas.. I payed to be apart of their services/events. I went to the Reunion in Little Rock and yes I too paid for the Event. That cost me money to be apart of a COMMUNITY I love so very much. I would do it over and over again.

Let me try this again. Olivia is a business with a business model that targets part of the greater LGBTQQI community. That does not make Olivia a community. The people who utilize Olivia's services may certainly be a community. A business is not a community.....like-minded individuals may and can create a community.

A business can and will close for lack of money. Communities exist without the presence of money.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm not sure how any for-profit business is part of any community other than the business community. Providing services for a fee and calling that service community makes no sense. My community doesn't make me pay lots of money to participate.

Could you clarify how that works?

you need to stop making me cry Toughy.

I understand what a business is, I worked in corporate America for many many years. I understand what you're saying. What I am saying is this: The people that are the faces of Queer/Lesbian businesses ARE my community - my sisters and brothers in the world.

When I frequent Hispanic owned businesses, and a Hispanic gives me flack for my light skin - I am hurt by my own.

So as a Lesbian, being treated like shit under the guise of "it's a business" doesn't fly for me. What I am speaking to here is what happened to Blaze, who was a Lesbian turned away from a Lesbian business for.....what? Left standing on the docks mind you.

I also understand that many people have had great experiences on the Olivia cruiseline. Aboard a ship full of their community, no?

So I understand what you are saying, I do. I'm just coming from a different place.

[IrishGrrl]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Olivia is NOT a community. It's a business that provides travel services.....cruises.....targeted toward lesbians with disposable income. Good grief. Lets stop confusing business and community. I promise they understand the demographics of their target consumers. Sometimes lesbians just want to be with lesbians.

Business and community get confused quite often. I think that's because some business' help facilitate community for many of us, so we tend to get it confused.
For instance. The dash site was/is a business. Many people dont agree with that, never did. But I think it became quite obvious in the last two years.
What I cant stand, is a business claiming to be "community" when clearly it is not. I see nothing wrong with being a business, but say so. Community does not behave like a business, and vice versa.

Olivia cruises are a business who facilitates community. They are being specific to which community they cater to.

I think where they are going wrong is trying to dictate who and who is not a lesbian. If they want to cater to a certain demographic they need to be more specific because the term lesbian does not just apply to feminine looking women who eat pussy.