Open Letter: Dear Femme

[NJFemmie]

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.

... when I think of high femme, I think of my old friend Stephanie - always dressed to the nines in her skirts (she NEVER EVER EVER wore pants - in fact, the one day she came to my house wearing jeans, (this was after having a lengthy conversation about her wardrobe) I damn near died, lol), makeup always impeccable and flawless, high heels that shot her into another galaxy (she was a tall drink of water to begin with) - she always fussed and demanded the very best. She was a sweetheart, but good lord she could really fuss up a storm. I referred to her as ultra-femme - if I were to consider a pyramid of femme-ness - Steph would be sitting right on top.

Do I think of all high femmes this way? Not necessarily, but, in a way yes - when I consider attitude, demeanor and aesthetics.

Side note: I know very few high femme submissives.

Low femme would be the opposite (IMO). Low maintenance femme makes me think of a 'casual' femme - more down to earth in appearance and 'tude. Not as fussy aesthetically speaking, but femme non the less.

Yet, to sound contradictory to my pyramid statement, it's difficult for me to perceive a "ranking system" for anyone. I don't think an ultra or high femme is "above" a low and/or casual femme. The pyramid I am referring to would be based on purely aesthetics.

This may sound redundant, but I base opinions of people on WHO they are, not WHAT they are, or HOW they perceive themselves to be. When I think of "ranking" - I think of who is better than who - who stands above someone else - and I find that to be difficult for me, since I base my opinions on people based on who/how they are as a human being - not how a person dresses and/or portrays themselves to the world - and not based on what title they hold in life.

Issues about not being femme enough have (more-or-less) the same conflicts as not being butch enough. IMO, it's all based on opinions, and opinions are - loaded guns with serious implications. I don't think any less of myself because I am not ultra or high femme - and I wouldn't tolerate anyone making me think that I am. It's about preference. If I am not femme enough for someone - that's okay - I am not going to make myself into something I'm not because I think of a "ranking system".

I guess when I continue to read that some are having self-issues with the level of femme-ness they possess (or don't) - it bothers me a little. You are who you are, and that doesn't make you (collectively) less than. It doesn't make them (collectively) better.

Well, thank you for putting up with my morning rant.
I will now consume copious amounts of coffee, with the hopes that everything I just said made some kind of sense.

Cheers.

[Kim]

e, what a wonderful thread! I'm blown away by your introspection as well as the genius of all the femmes who posted.

The idea of a high femme as better than other femmes -- or the epitome of what it means to be femme -- disturbs me. I respect femmes who self-identify as "high" but I also don't see it as a hierarchy or ranking system. "Different" does not equal "better than" in my eyes.

It struck me how our expression of femininity via clothes/outward appearance is so very different than how straight people express themselves. I peruse some of the fashion sites that are predominantly straight (I presume femmes are there but I haven't seen them), and there is a myriad of women -- in skirts, jeans, dresses, shorts, bumming out, dressing to the hilt, perfect makeup, no makeup -- there is no hint of a hierarchy or "more feminine than..." based on appearance, clothes, etc.

This leads to the question -- are we ranking ourselves? Are our butch/boy/boi counterparts participating in this? Do we feel "less than" if we don't live up to the standards or expectations of "high femme"?

Much love,
Kim <--I'll be turning my cranky old guy on tonight by wearing a hoodie and jeans lol

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Kim

This leads to the question -- are we ranking ourselves? Are our butch/boy/boi counterparts participating in this? Do we feel "less than" if we don't live up to the standards or expectations of "high femme"?

I think so.

I don't hear heterosexual women "rank" themselves. I never hear "oh, she's a high hetero, or ooo, look at that casual, low maintenance straight woman". I do see where judgment takes place - perhaps that's one and the same but in different clothing?

I do believe butches take part of this - because speaking for myself, I have had butches try to tell me what is femme and what isn't - and what supposedly makes a high femme versus not-a-high femme. (I really am not liking the word "low" unless it's used to say "low maintenance").

? ? ? ? ? Ugh.

Again, it's a matter of perception and preference. But in no way do I feel, that a person's self esteem should be based on this so-called hierarchy.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I think so.

I don't hear heterosexual women "rank" themselves. I never hear "oh, she's a high hetero, or ooo, look at that casual, low maintenance straight woman". I do see where judgment takes place - perhaps that's one and the same but in different clothing?

Soccer Mom
Country Club Woman
Trophy Wife
Saks Shopper
Wal-Mart People
School teacher
Librarian

I think these all have inherent "looks" and "rankings". When you see those words, do you get a mental image that you then have to get rid of? I do. I hear het women ranking themselves all the time.... but generally it is below some other so-called higher womanly image.

The more I think about this, the more I think that this ranking of females is so entangled in our culture that we may not even realize it.

Consider advertising, right? A man is judged not for what he wears but who he has on his arm. In a sea of dark suits and ties, the woman stands out in her vibrant dress and jewels.

Those of the butch persuasion are no less affected by advertising than those of the femme persuasion.

For me, a lot of the male-centric things within my community are products of socialization. Socialization affected, effected and directed by marketing.

I was raised that it's just tacky for a woman to go out in sweats but no biggie for a man. How do I translate that to my relationships within the BF world?

Example:It's okay for the butch to show up in rumpled attire, but I would be appalled if I did it and, yes, I actaully would judge a femme on this. That's something I have to address with myself obviously.

But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Arwen

But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?

Perhaps all of the above.

Aren't we all conditioned to respond this way, and yes, more specifically towards women?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

Perhaps all of the above.

Aren't we all conditioned to respond this way, and yes, more specifically towards women?

Yes. When females are born, we are sprinkled with tenderizer so it will be easier to tear one another apart.

If only women could turn all of this negative shit inside out and blast the evil forces in the world with it, we'd be on the fast track to world peace.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

It's not just women though.

A woman walks into a store wearing sweats. The salesman looks her up and down with displeasure. Points her in a direction she had no interest in going. She probably made more money in six months than he did in one year - yet - he made assumptions about her.

Would this salesman respond the same way if a man walked in wearing sweats? Probably not.

It depends upon the salesman. If he was a car salesman, yes. If he was a high end retail salesman, then he'd most likely treat them equally.

I haven't met anyone with the capability to treat everyone they meet the same. While some try, it's just not in our nature. It is, however, in a woman's nature to internalize things and think and think and think about them until somehow the smallest things are pronounced. Why is that?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.

[blush]

Originally Posted by apretty

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.

I think the darker side of the HM stereotype is someone who is completely shallow and insists on being the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by blush

It's the Cinderalla complex. Or part of it. We are taught that there is only ONE beautiful woman in any given room. If that's "not us," then it must be something flawed in ourselves.

I don't think it's in "our nature," though. I think it's Disney-based.

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

That's really more where I am coming from. I admire beauty and confidence in other women. I'm kind of oblivious to the idea of competition, and I never would consider myself a threat to anyone. And, after being around these sites and "communities" for a few years, I realize that this is rather naive.

I do think that every group has an established hierarchy, whether or not we're all aware of it. When I was in college, I really liked one of my classmates, and I tried to reach out to be her friend. She was pretty rude to me so I finally just asked her, "You and I have so much in common, and I really like you. Why do you keep pushing me away?" She told me that it was because I was a threat to her and to her position in our program. She told me that I, like her, was smart, pretty, and I asked good questions. And, that was too much for her. I was flabbergasted. Just floored.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.

I'm not trying to throw Walt under the bus. Of course, the Cinderella story is a Grimm Fairy Tale from wayway back in the day. I think it is so rampant in our culture that we have to fight NOT to fall back into that "one girl" mentality.

I agree with you, I've fought the conditioning too. Usually what I find beautiful in a person has little bearing on their clothes.

As an aside, kids are best, imo, at seeing people for who they "really" are.

[Medusa]

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

[blush]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

damn. you're good...

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

Medusa,
I think You say so much of what some of us are feeling here I just had to repeat is, as blush did.

Similar to Your story, I was nervous about going to a big ol' "family party" in 2007 in Dallas. I was looking forward to meeting everyone, but once they saw me, what would they think THEN? Right?

One of the most empowering things for me ~ and there were 3 things that weekend that DID give me a great deal of personal power ~ was hearing Your letter to Your Mama, Medusa, during the spoken word segment of the cabaret deal. I remember all the pieces of paper....I remember being mesmerized by Your passion, Your fierceness. And I remember thinking, "Gimme some~a THAT!" because I was intoxicated by that fierce passion!!! Here was this big, beautiful bombshell beauty who was "screaming" about her heart's desires.

And it was during Your letter in spoken word that I fell in love with Medusa.

What did You DO with those bits of paper? I hope to that Wire Sculpture 'Dusa that You have it in a safe place. It should be in every Femme Manual.........jus' sayin'......

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

i'm in high dudgeon at the mo' so excuse me. the fact that any of you amazing women has been shoved into the "less than" dressing room to find some culturally artificial (and not even decently tailored in order to actually be personal) shame to wear is pissing me off!

Gemmie-poo...like Medusa, Arwen, Diva and Bit...to me you're already so damn beautiful in words...i'm afraid of having to wear sunglasses in order to merely hang out with you. so let's drag that freakin' mirror down here to eye level. i'll get the step stool, you find the dust rag and we'll just haul it down and see what's so darn scary.

Originally Posted by Gemme

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.

and for that reason, if no other, we should all be writing fairy tales that include the plain/ugly/nerdy/genderqueer/fat/or whatever sister kicking ass, taking names, falling in love only if she damn well feels like it, and living happily ever after.


just sayin'

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by apretty

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.

Hmmm ... no. Can't say that would be the case.

My friend used high maintenance to describe herself. This was about the very first time I have ever heard that being used. (Which is why when I hear that, I automatically think of her).

Will come back to this when I have more time (and am more awake).

[cara]

...I wasn't really drunk, btw. Just trying to be funny. Don't think it worked, though.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by cara

...I wasn't really drunk, btw. Just trying to be funny. Don't think it worked, though.

I laughed and visualized Hello Kitty stumbling through the Arwen's living room.

Chuckles.