Open Letter: Dear Femme

[cara]

I've been told my entire life to "act like a lady." When I was younger and playing rugby, an older male told me getting hurt was what I got for trying to play a man's sport. I was too shocked to retort by saying that I didn't get hurt playing rugby but that it was actually an injury from playing volleyball at the company picnic. *eyeroll* I've heard this mysoginistic stuff from my dad, from men trying to pick me up, from butches and even people in the leather community. I've heard it so much that, like Arwen, I have to fight that internal processing so hard ever day. It has been a struggle to figure out who I am and find my own voice. What I want is to be seen, heard, understood and accepted as a person not a gender or gender stereotype. I agree with Bit that our community has evolved a lot over the past several years. I am curious to see what it will look like in another 7 years.

~cara

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Lynn

It's true, I've been told that I'm not a femme by someone (happened to be FtM) from the match site. I think the reason was that I expressed to him that I appreciate all women, not just butch women. Even though butch women are my preference for romantic or sexual partners.

But, whatever. It bugged me because I thought he was a jerk to offer his opinion. I was amazed (naively) that someone who had defied stereotypes, as he had, would be so quick to label and judge me. It didn't affect how I felt about myself, though. I can have low self-esteem without any help from anyone!

The same has happened to me, but on that other site - I was told I wasn't femme because I too, appreciate all women. I AM a lesbian, so femme wasn't supposed to be an identifying option for me. According to that particular source, femmes are "supposed" to be into stone/TG/FtM butches (exclusively). Lesbians "don't count" as being femme.

Whatever.

I am who I feel inside. At times I feel fiercely femme, other times, I don't. I am just me exploring and playing out the many facets of who I am. I have been called unladylike but I have also been called high femme. I have had so many "labels" throughout my life - truthfully, I don't care how others perceive me anymore. All I concern myself with is being true to who I am and living each day in the world I define - not how others define it for me.

And for the record - I have never heard of "low femme" as a descriptor.

[Isadora]

I have always had issues with the "high" femme tag. I have always identified as femme. I wear make up almost all the time, don't own a pair of jeans (and I don't think have since high school almost 40 years ago) and wear heels 90% of the time. TO assume I am uncomfortable in them makes me so tired. I have been hearing to "Why don't you wear tennis shoes and slacks and be comfortable?" for 30 years. I am comfortable in heels and flats. I am comfortable in skirts and dresses. Slacks bind me and I hate them. To use this as a way to describe a certain type of femme is just silly.

I never assume a femme who is more comfortable in slacks and jeans is less femme. Cheezus. At least when I came out in the 60's and 70's there was not this on-going linear discussion of femme based on how you looked.

I was raised by two stylish women: my mother and grandmother who did not leave the house with out powder on the nose and a hand bag that matched their shoes. What the hell does that have to with my femme gender?

I had a gay man say to me the other day, "I have not quiet figured you out. You are so femme on the outside and....so ummm butch on the inside." My reply was "No, honey, that is called being a in control of my self and in my world I am femme inside and out. It is growing up the oldest of nine children with a mentally ill mother and having to take (and I mean take) control." I am, mostly, an in control femme. Inside and out. It doesn't make me a high or low or medium femme it makes me competent and a wee bit bossy.

Hahahaha!

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Arwen

For me, they don't. When someone id's as a "high" femme, I see, in my mind's eye, someone who likes to put on makeup and do the whole heels&hose drag.

I've never ever thought of it as a ranking or rating at all. I just see it as a qualifier of how much fussin' someone likes to do over their personal appearance.

But honestly, the only time I feel like there is a competition, for me, is how "girly" one can be. And it's a problem in my world to be seen as "not" girly enough.

That's more of a rating/ranking in my world than make-up and clothing (which is my sole identifier for high vs low femme.)

It's the simpering and giggling that get me because I don't personally get it. And, grin, I'm gonna say it outloud. It's the whole Daddy/girl thing played out in public. DO NOT GET IT AT ALL.

I get it as a personal, behind bedroom doors thing. I do not get it as a public play thing. And that's my hang up and it's my issue to deal with. I do not think others should modify their behaviour.

But that is what can also make me feel "not enough" because I am simply not willing to call someone "Daddy" and giggle and coo.

I rambled again. Blush, for what it's worth, you are one of the ones who can make me worry about my own femmeness. And it's not makeup or clothes or any of that. It is simply your own sweet self and your energy. I sometimes feel like a linebacker around women who are petite. Grin. So there you have it.

On my list of femmes who scare me....Blush and Puplove too. OH and femmes like Pinkielee who has the most amazing fashion sense. Shari goes in that category too as well as Adele.

So that's MY issue. It's my problem that I compare myself to others and sometimes find myself wanting.

That's not a butch issue. No butch is standing in the background saying, "Why can't you be more like MedusaIsadoraGemmeAnyoneOtherThanYou." That's my own low self-esteem sneaking up on me.

And I am on a hunt to destroy that voice. But this thread is really helping me identify what I trigger it with. ooh Badger.

So, again, high vs low? Not so much. Arwen vs other femmes? Hideous ranking system where I used to always lose. I'm learning though. I am learning.

You mentioned something later on that I've quoted below also. You said you'd like to look at yourself through Adele's mirror. If we would all trade mirrors once in a while, we'd see more clearly I think.

You and I share a similar, if not the same, personal definition of high femme. I only heard the term 'low' femme at the other place but I've never (to my recollection) heard anyone apply it to themselves. There have been tomboy femmes and casual femmes but I haven't knowingly run into any low femmes.

I don't see high versus low as a ranking system either, but I DO see a hierarchy, if that makes sense, since the two usually walk through the door hand in hand. I don't see high as being better than low but I do see it as being more attractive to certain people and in certain situations.

I also have any issue with feeling like I'm 'not enough'. This applies to many areas, not just being a femme in general. When others see me, they may think petite, which I am. At least I push the petite versus short point because, in my mind, when someone says short, I think stubby. Immediately. *shrug* But I digress...it's like I'm a chimera or something. I'm small on top and a cheerleading linebacker on the bottom.

It's difficult to feel feminine, much less femme, when you see yourself as something that is traditionally very masculine and has terms like "husky" to describe it.

Is this where I go into the whole "you ate your twin while I was pregnant with you" thing?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I scare the Arwen? I am pretty sure my perception is not skewed about you Arwen. You are the epitome of Strong/Hot/Femme to me. You don't take shit, you speak your mind and you do it all while looking gorgeous. Jeans and a t-shirt look as alluring on you as a ball gown. You shine from the inside out.

Remember Vegas Arwen? You danced the entire night at the Ball and I sat in a chair with nobody willing to approach me, talk to me, or ask me to dance. You came over twitterpated and told me you felt like the Bell of the Ball. It was transformative for you. I told you that i felt i-n-v-i-s-i-b-l-e. You were shocked.

I was not. I am used to it. I don't make effort to "perform" Femme. I really am just me all of the time. My world view doesn't measure girliness in others, but rather cerebral stimulation, kindness, empathy, and heart. All of which you carry very well. I'm not high. I'm not low. I don't see others as high or low in any kind of rating system or higherarchy (thanks ap).

I may or may not be confuzzled on how I could possibly scare you. Pet my head please.

Posts like this just make me fall a little bit more in love with you, Adele.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I so want to borrow your mirror to look at myself in. I do remember dancing that night away and feeling like a Belle of the Ball. It was transformative to me (And that cute Katanaboi helped, lol).

When you and I went shopping...I felt like this ignoramus. I had no clue what Sephora was. I was so sure you would see through me and realize I was just a pretend femme.

P.S. ~ I knew what Sephora was but I'd never been in one until two months ago. It's nice and sparkly, but it certainly does not make the femme.

Originally Posted by blush

I hear you on the Donna Reed. I think what I meant was is "high" femme an aspiration we all secretly have? Do we perceive it to be the pinnacle of femme?

On the flip side of the high femme, I've also heard a lot of shit from femmes and trans/butches about high femmes. That they are stupid, "too much work," ALWAYS submissive, ALWAYS stone, and on and on...

The very idea of being a high femme makes me cringe and my feet hurt. I can wear the heels, and like to, for special events. If I wore them all the time, it wouldn't be special for me. It'd be more like a slow torture to my tootsies. I own dresses. I own a TON of dresses. Do I wear them? Oh, every 5 years or so, when I make a butch femme get together and only if they are long. Would I like to look good in said dresses and heels? Sure. Would I wear them more if I thought I looked better than I do now in them? Sure. Would it make me a high femme? Nah.

It's not the pinnacle to me, although I have GOT to appreciate a woman who can do all that. I'm in awe of it, really. I'm simply too lazy to do that.

I've noticed that high femmes do tend to be Stone more often. I can see the correlation, but I'm sure there are some who do not identify as Stone. I know of some high femmes that are NOT submissive, though. That, and the whole stupid thing, are a load of hot, steaming .

[Lynn]

In this discussion of "high femme," or any other type of femme, it's fascinating to consider the question: to what degree does the inner person match the outer person? Does it matter? For me, yes it does. I have found that my own happiness and sense of grounding has much to do with the extent to which what you (and I) see and perceive of me is consistent with who I believe myself to be.

One of the lessons I learned through my divorce and the whole coming out process is that I need to listen to my own voice, and consult with myself first when it comes to important matters. My own intuition is the best guide, when I remember to pay attention.

So, when it comes to the question of what style or way of being best suits me, I go with my gut. I'm not girly, but I am womanly. I'm short, but I stand tall--not on very high heels, though. I dress in a feminine way, but not frilly or really girly. Etc. All of this isn't a contrived identity in order to attract particular someones. It's just as close to expressing myself through my appearance as I can get.

Aside from the occasional "you're too pretty to be a lesbian" comments (which I don't mind so much...I like to be called pretty ), there is very little confusion these days about who I am. No one is surprised when I say I'm a lesbian. I have this idea that it's because I get more and more consistent, with my "inner and outer" lives. The keys to this being self-awareness and self-trust. Not that I have this all down, by any means. It's a process.

[NJFemmie]

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.

... when I think of high femme, I think of my old friend Stephanie - always dressed to the nines in her skirts (she NEVER EVER EVER wore pants - in fact, the one day she came to my house wearing jeans, (this was after having a lengthy conversation about her wardrobe) I damn near died, lol), makeup always impeccable and flawless, high heels that shot her into another galaxy (she was a tall drink of water to begin with) - she always fussed and demanded the very best. She was a sweetheart, but good lord she could really fuss up a storm. I referred to her as ultra-femme - if I were to consider a pyramid of femme-ness - Steph would be sitting right on top.

Do I think of all high femmes this way? Not necessarily, but, in a way yes - when I consider attitude, demeanor and aesthetics.

Side note: I know very few high femme submissives.

Low femme would be the opposite (IMO). Low maintenance femme makes me think of a 'casual' femme - more down to earth in appearance and 'tude. Not as fussy aesthetically speaking, but femme non the less.

Yet, to sound contradictory to my pyramid statement, it's difficult for me to perceive a "ranking system" for anyone. I don't think an ultra or high femme is "above" a low and/or casual femme. The pyramid I am referring to would be based on purely aesthetics.

This may sound redundant, but I base opinions of people on WHO they are, not WHAT they are, or HOW they perceive themselves to be. When I think of "ranking" - I think of who is better than who - who stands above someone else - and I find that to be difficult for me, since I base my opinions on people based on who/how they are as a human being - not how a person dresses and/or portrays themselves to the world - and not based on what title they hold in life.

Issues about not being femme enough have (more-or-less) the same conflicts as not being butch enough. IMO, it's all based on opinions, and opinions are - loaded guns with serious implications. I don't think any less of myself because I am not ultra or high femme - and I wouldn't tolerate anyone making me think that I am. It's about preference. If I am not femme enough for someone - that's okay - I am not going to make myself into something I'm not because I think of a "ranking system".

I guess when I continue to read that some are having self-issues with the level of femme-ness they possess (or don't) - it bothers me a little. You are who you are, and that doesn't make you (collectively) less than. It doesn't make them (collectively) better.

Well, thank you for putting up with my morning rant.
I will now consume copious amounts of coffee, with the hopes that everything I just said made some kind of sense.

Cheers.

[Kim]

e, what a wonderful thread! I'm blown away by your introspection as well as the genius of all the femmes who posted.

The idea of a high femme as better than other femmes -- or the epitome of what it means to be femme -- disturbs me. I respect femmes who self-identify as "high" but I also don't see it as a hierarchy or ranking system. "Different" does not equal "better than" in my eyes.

It struck me how our expression of femininity via clothes/outward appearance is so very different than how straight people express themselves. I peruse some of the fashion sites that are predominantly straight (I presume femmes are there but I haven't seen them), and there is a myriad of women -- in skirts, jeans, dresses, shorts, bumming out, dressing to the hilt, perfect makeup, no makeup -- there is no hint of a hierarchy or "more feminine than..." based on appearance, clothes, etc.

This leads to the question -- are we ranking ourselves? Are our butch/boy/boi counterparts participating in this? Do we feel "less than" if we don't live up to the standards or expectations of "high femme"?

Much love,
Kim <--I'll be turning my cranky old guy on tonight by wearing a hoodie and jeans lol

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Kim

This leads to the question -- are we ranking ourselves? Are our butch/boy/boi counterparts participating in this? Do we feel "less than" if we don't live up to the standards or expectations of "high femme"?

I think so.

I don't hear heterosexual women "rank" themselves. I never hear "oh, she's a high hetero, or ooo, look at that casual, low maintenance straight woman". I do see where judgment takes place - perhaps that's one and the same but in different clothing?

I do believe butches take part of this - because speaking for myself, I have had butches try to tell me what is femme and what isn't - and what supposedly makes a high femme versus not-a-high femme. (I really am not liking the word "low" unless it's used to say "low maintenance").

? ? ? ? ? Ugh.

Again, it's a matter of perception and preference. But in no way do I feel, that a person's self esteem should be based on this so-called hierarchy.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I think so.

I don't hear heterosexual women "rank" themselves. I never hear "oh, she's a high hetero, or ooo, look at that casual, low maintenance straight woman". I do see where judgment takes place - perhaps that's one and the same but in different clothing?

Soccer Mom
Country Club Woman
Trophy Wife
Saks Shopper
Wal-Mart People
School teacher
Librarian

I think these all have inherent "looks" and "rankings". When you see those words, do you get a mental image that you then have to get rid of? I do. I hear het women ranking themselves all the time.... but generally it is below some other so-called higher womanly image.

The more I think about this, the more I think that this ranking of females is so entangled in our culture that we may not even realize it.

Consider advertising, right? A man is judged not for what he wears but who he has on his arm. In a sea of dark suits and ties, the woman stands out in her vibrant dress and jewels.

Those of the butch persuasion are no less affected by advertising than those of the femme persuasion.

For me, a lot of the male-centric things within my community are products of socialization. Socialization affected, effected and directed by marketing.

I was raised that it's just tacky for a woman to go out in sweats but no biggie for a man. How do I translate that to my relationships within the BF world?

Example:It's okay for the butch to show up in rumpled attire, but I would be appalled if I did it and, yes, I actaully would judge a femme on this. That's something I have to address with myself obviously.

But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Arwen

But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?

Perhaps all of the above.

Aren't we all conditioned to respond this way, and yes, more specifically towards women?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

Perhaps all of the above.

Aren't we all conditioned to respond this way, and yes, more specifically towards women?

Yes. When females are born, we are sprinkled with tenderizer so it will be easier to tear one another apart.

If only women could turn all of this negative shit inside out and blast the evil forces in the world with it, we'd be on the fast track to world peace.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

It's not just women though.

A woman walks into a store wearing sweats. The salesman looks her up and down with displeasure. Points her in a direction she had no interest in going. She probably made more money in six months than he did in one year - yet - he made assumptions about her.

Would this salesman respond the same way if a man walked in wearing sweats? Probably not.

It depends upon the salesman. If he was a car salesman, yes. If he was a high end retail salesman, then he'd most likely treat them equally.

I haven't met anyone with the capability to treat everyone they meet the same. While some try, it's just not in our nature. It is, however, in a woman's nature to internalize things and think and think and think about them until somehow the smallest things are pronounced. Why is that?

[blush]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.


Do I think of all high femmes this way? Not necessarily, but, in a way yes - when I consider attitude, demeanor and aesthetics.

Side note: I know very few high femme submissives.

Low femme would be the opposite (IMO). Low maintenance femme makes me think of a 'casual' femme - more down to earth in appearance and 'tude. Not as fussy aesthetically speaking, but femme non the less.

Yet, to sound contradictory to my pyramid statement, it's difficult for me to perceive a "ranking system" for anyone. I don't think an ultra or high femme is "above" a low and/or casual femme. The pyramid I am referring to would be based on purely aesthetics.

This may sound redundant, but I base opinions of people on WHO they are, not WHAT they are, or HOW they perceive themselves to be. When I think of "ranking" - I think of who is better than who - who stands above someone else - and I find that to be difficult for me, since I base my opinions on people based on who/how they are as a human being - not how a person dresses and/or portrays themselves to the world - and not based on what title they hold in life.

Issues about not being femme enough have (more-or-less) the same conflicts as not being butch enough. IMO, it's all based on opinions, and opinions are - loaded guns with serious implications. I don't think any less of myself because I am not ultra or high femme - and I wouldn't tolerate anyone making me think that I am. It's about preference. If I am not femme enough for someone - that's okay - I am not going to make myself into something I'm not because I think of a "ranking system".

I guess when I continue to read that some are having self-issues with the level of femme-ness they possess (or don't) - it bothers me a little. You are who you are, and that doesn't make you (collectively) less than. It doesn't make them (collectively) better.

Well, thank you for putting up with my morning rant.
I will now consume copious amounts of coffee, with the hopes that everything I just said made some kind of sense.

Cheers.

What hit me about what you (and others) are saying is that the most common descriptor for femmes is entirely based on our appearance. We sum ourselves and each other up based on how we look. Is this human nature or is it the b-f culture?

I do consider a pyramid to be a hierarchy. The "top" (high femme) has the attitude and the dress. It scares me to think that the pinnacle of "femme-ness" is any "type." Shouldn't our admiration be based more on human ethics? Wouldn't it be fabulous if our pinnacle was something more than the type of shoe a femme wears? Shouldn't we have better standards?

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by blush

What hit me about what you (and others) are saying is that the most common descriptor for femmes is entirely based on our appearance. We sum ourselves and each other up based on how we look. Is this human nature or is it the b-f culture?

I do consider a pyramid to be a hierarchy. The "top" (high femme) has the attitude and the dress. It scares me to think that the pinnacle of "femme-ness" is any "type." Shouldn't our admiration be based more on human ethics? Wouldn't it be fabulous if our pinnacle was something more than the type of shoe a femme wears? Shouldn't we have better standards?

That's exactly my sentiment. I base my opinions on human nature, not appearance. I've come across many women (and men), that may LOOK good, but that's about where it ends.

[blush]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

That's exactly my sentiment. I base my opinions on human nature, not appearance. I've come across many women (and men), that may LOOK good, but that's about where it ends.

I think that, individually, our bullshit detectors are pretty good.

I'm getting at the collective image that a high femme is the best example of femme. We seem to feel that a high femme embodies "femme" best, even if WE don't necessarily wear (or want to wear) that label.

[apretty]

/off topic

regardless of what he or she is selling, a quality salesperson is interested in making the sale and it wouldn't matter what the customer is wearing. i think experiences vary widely, here. most times i chalk up bad service to inexperience or an unskilled, inept salesperson --not to who i am/what i intend to buy, or not.

Originally Posted by Gemme

It depends upon the salesman. If he was a car salesman, yes. If he was a high end retail salesman, then he'd most likely treat them equally.

I haven't met anyone with the capability to treat everyone they meet the same. While some try, it's just not in our nature. It is, however, in a woman's nature to internalize things and think and think and think about them until somehow the smallest things are pronounced. Why is that?

/on topic:

cuz we're taught from day one to subjugate ourselves.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I haven't met anyone with the capability to treat everyone they meet the same. While some try, it's just not in our nature. It is, however, in a woman's nature to internalize things and think and think and think about them until somehow the smallest things are pronounced. Why is that?

It's the Cinderalla complex. Or part of it. We are taught that there is only ONE beautiful woman in any given room. If that's "not us," then it must be something flawed in ourselves.

I don't think it's in "our nature," though. I think it's Disney-based.

[blush]

Originally Posted by apretty

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.

I think the darker side of the HM stereotype is someone who is completely shallow and insists on being the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by blush

It's the Cinderalla complex. Or part of it. We are taught that there is only ONE beautiful woman in any given room. If that's "not us," then it must be something flawed in ourselves.

I don't think it's in "our nature," though. I think it's Disney-based.

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.