Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

I'd be very surprised if this were not very common among those of us who have troubled to do some gender exploration. I think once we start asking ourselves questions like "what makes femininity?" or "what makes true beauty?" we begin to see very clearly that everyone else is beautiful.

I think we don't see it about ourselves because our brainwashing/societal conditioning goes so deep. The moment we can believe on some level that we might be pretty, the OTHER societal conditioning snaps into play--yanno, that one that says, "Shhhh! Don't say anything positive or the gods will strike you DOWN! Don't jinx yourself!"

When you have to fight your way through not just societally implanted images of beauty, but also societally implanted fears of positive thought AND societally implanted fears of being punished, it takes a while to see yourself truly.

I like your Mirror thread, btw. You did a wonderful job with it!

Good points.

Oh, and the Mirror thread was Arwen's idea but I consider it a thread for all of us.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Bit there is a lot of good stuff to talk about here. I am fresh out of the straight world and I have to agree that I have never heard a straight woman obsess about whether or not she is feminine enough. The standard mom look is not feminine at all. I have spent more time obsessing about being feminine since I came out than I ever did before! I did not imagine that would be that case.

I sure never expected it either. I've never known anyone who was actually straight to consider their femininity the way we do... and honestly, I wonder if this is partly (or even mostly) because the Queer female community as a whole spent twenty years trying to redefine "woman," and femininity came in for some hard questioning during that period.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Is the high femme really the pinnacle of femininity for the larger culture? I am not sure if I agree with that. I think femininity is not what the focus of the larger culture is. It seems more like a sexual image is the pinnacle.

Huh. I think ya got me on that one.... I'm showing my age in a big way, and the effects of turning my back on pop culture; today's images that straight women are supposed to aspire to... they're the singers, right? The big stars from movies and concerts....

It used to be that "lady" was the pinnacle of femininity--that Donna Reed/Doris Day perfectly-coiffed-and-pearled image--and it used to be that even the comediennes were "proper ladies." (Think Lucy, Mary Tyler Moore, or Carol Burnett...) Even the smoldering sex kittens were still "ladies" when I was paying attention. (Marilyn, especially--she had icon status already when I was a teenager.)

I don't think I would call any of today's big stars "ladies." You're right that the pinnacle has changed.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I don't associate that image with femme or high femme. I guess I don't see it is a highly sexualized image. Femme and high femme are more of a package than an outward sexy image. Am I not seeing things right here? I have a very different idea of what feminine is and how I want to express that since I have come out. Looking or behaving sexy is not part of that.

I dunno Julie... I will say frankly that sex and being Femme are inescapably entwined for me; I personally cannot be who I am as a Femme without acknowledging myself as a sexual being... if I weren't a sexual being, what would differentiate me from, say, a nun?

Well, okay, so I don't obey very well, lol... I would just have to be the Abbess or something. Mother Top.

I'm not certain how to answer you articulately... I was SO squashed before I came out, and it was only the power of wild lust that drove me to take a chance on loving a woman. There was nothing intellectual about THAT decision, no analysis; I didn't even have the language to understand a discussion like we're having today. Hell, I couldn't even admit that I was a Lesbian for years. When I finally got over the "I'm not a lesbian; I just happened to fall in love with a woman" phase, I stayed stuck in the "I must be bisexual" phase for a couple more years.

So for me, being Femme and being a sexual being, they are tied so tightly together that they're the same thing. For me, sexuality is part of femininity and I cannot see how I could be a Femme in any other way.

BUT certainly I am not a sexual being like the stars of pop culture are; to begin with, their image of sexuality is my image of famine, so I'm stymied at the get-go.

Does any of this even make sense or am I rambling like crazy here? I think I have to go make some tea and get caffeinated... well, anyhow, thank you for responding, Julie, and for your insights about what society promotes these days. I appreciate it.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Bit

I sure never expected it either. I've never known anyone who was actually straight to consider their femininity the way we do... and honestly, I wonder if this is partly (or even mostly) because the Queer female community as a whole spent twenty years trying to redefine "woman," and femininity came in for some hard questioning during that period.

i've wondered if this is due, in part, to a hetero-normative belief that some queer women "want to be men". i think back to the butches and transguys i know who were forced into feminine roles as younger persons? there are so many perceptions of "female", "femme", "feminine", "femininity", etc and gender presentation is so infinite and fluid...damn...now i'm rambling. you're stretching my brain again Bit...

Originally Posted by Bit

I will say frankly that sex and being Femme are inescapably entwined for me; I personally cannot be who I am as a Femme without acknowledging myself as a sexual being... if I weren't a sexual being, what would differentiate me from, say, a nun?

ditto. i dont say that they cant be considered separately or that one is wholly dependent on the other for me...but one certainly feeds my deeply personal satisfaction in the other.

Originally Posted by Bit

I'm not certain how to answer you articulately... I was SO squashed before I came out, and it was only the power of wild lust that drove me to take a chance on loving a woman. There was nothing intellectual about THAT decision, no analysis; I didn't even have the language to understand a discussion like we're having today. Hell, I couldn't even admit that I was a Lesbian for years. When I finally got over the "I'm not a lesbian; I just happened to fall in love with a woman" phase, I stayed stuck in the "I must be bisexual" phase for a couple more years.

So for me, being Femme and being a sexual being, they are tied so tightly together that they're the same thing. For me, sexuality is part of femininity and I cannot see how I could be a Femme in any other way.

while i didnt have the same experience with phases...when i came out i came like i was spring loaded and have never considered myself bi-sexual...i used the word "lesbian" because i had to. there was no word (that i knew of) for how i felt. hell, i couldnt even define who i felt i was because, like you, my vocabulary and language was constrained by my limited life experiences. "lesbian" was the only word i knew. i no longer consider myself a "lesbian". i am a femme. i cant always explain that in words but there's a pit of my stomach understanding that tells me i've hit personally relevant pay dirt.

i think everyone is a sexual being, even the celibate. they simply choose to do something different with that piece of their humanity than i do. sexuality and my personal choices in sexual expression are inseparable from the creature that is "ME". perhaps the confidence, the comfort in my own skin, the "rightness" i feel with regard to being a sexual being is exponentially supported and enhanced by the same confidence, comfort and rightness of being a femme. the defining details of "woman", "lesbian", "genderqueer", "butch", "femme", and etc (no offense/limitations to expression meant by stopping the list there...it's just that it could go on forever) may be subtle to some and screamingly obvious to others.

we each compile our own vocabulary of self-definition based on internal and external experience and environment, and we learn more as we go on ~being~ . as we acknowledge new experiences the defining words and concepts we use come into focus or change, for some of us they change radically. (as an example, i didnt know that being a transensual femme was an option in life until i was in my mid to late 30s. my understanding of the world and experiences with it didnt include the language for the physiological knowledge i felt. my brain didnt comprehend what my cells understood completely.) i dont think that focusing experience ever stops. it just becomes more subtle as we age and come into our authentic selves.

Originally Posted by Bit

BUT certainly I am not a sexual being like the stars of pop culture are; to begin with, their image of sexuality is my image of famine, so I'm stymied at the get-go.

(laughing) DITTO

Originally Posted by Bit

Does any of this even make sense or am I rambling like crazy here?

not only do you make sense...your rambling makes hella sense.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

i cant always explain that in words but there's a pit of my stomach understanding that tells me i've hit personally relevant pay dirt.

Hey darlin! I'm so glad you joined the convo!

What you said right up there is SO true for me about SO many things.... now that I think about it, though, I have words for most of the places in my life. It's here, discussing the gender and Femme parts of my life, that I run out of words and lose my ability to articulate my thoughts... maybe we're all pioneers in this discussion, forging a new trail through the language.

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

i think everyone is a sexual being, even the celibate. they simply choose to do something different with that piece of their humanity than i do.

Ooops. I wasn't clear enough. I meant that I personally did not have the option to acknowledge myself as a sexual being before I discovered my first partner; I came out of an abusive childhood almost completely squashed and controlled. So for me, adulthood, emancipation, sexuality, being a Lesbian, being a Femme--they all exploded into freedom at once the year I turned 23. That's why I personally cannot actually separate being sexual (whether I do anything with or about it or not) from being Femme.

I've enjoyed your posts. Thanks for the validation that I hadn't lost it after all... tea is being consumed, the brain is waking up....

[julieisafemme]

snip
I dunno Julie... I will say frankly that sex and being Femme are inescapably entwined for me; I personally cannot be who I am as a Femme without acknowledging myself as a sexual being... if I weren't a sexual being, what would differentiate me from, say, a nun?

Well, okay, so I don't obey very well, lol... I would just have to be the Abbess or something. Mother Top.

I'm not certain how to answer you articulately... I was SO squashed before I came out, and it was only the power of wild lust that drove me to take a chance on loving a woman. There was nothing intellectual about THAT decision, no analysis; I didn't even have the language to understand a discussion like we're having today. Hell, I couldn't even admit that I was a Lesbian for years. When I finally got over the "I'm not a lesbian; I just happened to fall in love with a woman" phase, I stayed stuck in the "I must be bisexual" phase for a couple more years.

So for me, being Femme and being a sexual being, they are tied so tightly together that they're the same thing. For me, sexuality is part of femininity and I cannot see how I could be a Femme in any other way.

BUT certainly I am not a sexual being like the stars of pop culture are; to begin with, their image of sexuality is my image of famine, so I'm stymied at the get-go.

Does any of this even make sense or am I rambling like crazy here? I think I have to go make some tea and get caffeinated... well, anyhow, thank you for responding, Julie, and for your insights about what society promotes these days. I appreciate it.
[/QUOTE]

I was not being clear here. I not feminine or a femme for someone else's pleasure. I own my sexuality now and it is not caught up and attached to a idealistic, stylized version of the sexy straight woman. I did not come out for a partner. I came out for ME. I told my family and all those close to me that I was gay before I had ever met a butch face-to-face. I don't feel confined anymore by straight sexuality, practices or presentation. So to me being a femme is so much more than just who I sleep with or my orientation.

Tea is good!!! My beverage of choice.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Good points.

Oh, and the Mirror thread was Arwen's idea but I consider it a thread for all of us.

No ducking out on the compliment, love. You are the one who followed through and started it. Tis your gift to the rest of us--even if you benefit from it, tis still your gift to us.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

No ducking out on the compliment, love. You are the one who followed through and started it. Tis your gift to the rest of us--even if you benefit from it, tis still your gift to us.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

i'm in high dudgeon at the mo' so excuse me. the fact that any of you amazing women has been shoved into the "less than" dressing room to find some culturally artificial (and not even decently tailored in order to actually be personal) shame to wear is pissing me off!

Gemmie-poo...like Medusa, Arwen, Diva and Bit...to me you're already so damn beautiful in words...i'm afraid of having to wear sunglasses in order to merely hang out with you. so let's drag that freakin' mirror down here to eye level. i'll get the step stool, you find the dust rag and we'll just haul it down and see what's so darn scary.

and for that reason, if no other, we should all be writing fairy tales that include the plain/ugly/nerdy/genderqueer/fat/or whatever sister kicking ass, taking names, falling in love only if she damn well feels like it, and living happily ever after.


just sayin'

No sunglasses required!

I've done some work on myself, so I'm at the point where I'm less adament in my defense of how horrid I am (usually) but it's more of an "Eh.." thing for me. People see the good things about me and are able to downplay or see past the less than brilliant things about me. Me? I see it all. Maybe because I live with it 24/7 and I tend to continually focus in on my problem areas (physically as well as emotionally and psychologically) so that the molehill becomes a mountain. But even the good things that I can recognize are like, "Well, I can write okay. I'm an okay person, morally 'n all."

I need to find a way to get excited about myself...about being ME. I'm sure it's in me somewhere. I just have to find that cheerleader part of me for myself. I think threads like this one and the Mirrors thread are helping me to maybe be able to do that in the future.

[Puplove]

Originally Posted by Medusa

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Jee-ZUS, Medusa, I hope that, since then, you have come to KNOW that when you walk into a room being who you are, people fall in love with you right and left - your smile, laugh, voice, serious no-bullshit talk, all-round presence, what you say, the vibes you put off, the shiny happy feelings and amazing energy you bring into a room. Not to mention the flawless makeup and hair and amazing outfits (but those are secondary to the feel and the WHO you are).

Size of body has nothing to do with it. Size of character and amazing powerful positive presence has everything to do with it. I harbor a secret case of Medusa envy, even though I really do like myself and feel lucky that I think my own presence fits me peachy keen.

Okay, back to today's topic...someday I will actually keep current on threads...

[labete]

I just want to say thank you to every one of you amazing contributors to this thread. There's so much substance here to take in, process, respond to.

I, too, have felt that there was a femme hierarchy and that "high femmes" (I really don't like that expression. I have heard the "low femme" term, applied by others and as self-labeling, but never in a flattering way.) were on top and I was somewhere much closer to the bottom. My reinforcement for that idea has mostly been from butches, but I've moved on. I decided part of the point (for me) of having the "queer" be part of my identity was what it implied to me about getting to make my own rules. I may or may not be anyone else's idea of what femme ought to be, but I am damn good at being me.

For me, femme is my gender identity, although that is big enough to encompass "woman" and "girl" and "female" as well. You can't take my femme away from me, regardless of what I wear or what I'm doing at any given time. I've been known to wear skirts, dresses, heels, but it's a form of drag for me. I mostly live in jeans or other casual pants (not athletic gear outside unless I am engaging in athletic activity or my house is burning down) and low-heeled boots, mules, sandals. I find that I get more external reinforcement for wearing the feminine drag, from strangers as well as friends and lovers. I've witnessed straight women being rewarded or punished socially for the way they choose to perform femininity as well. I've never considered only dressing up to go to a bar if I was partnered, though, nor do I know that anyone has considered me competition since tenth grade or so.

It saddens me that so many of us have been the victims of vicious femme sisters insecure in themselves and needing to cut us down to make themselves feel superior. I only know of three times in my life that I've been specifically targeted for ugly gossip, once by my (family of origin) sister and twice by masculine queers, and those were rough enough and femmes did participate in the feeding frenzy. If anyone still believes that I hoard man-jocks or am a coke fiend, well, I don't know what to tell you. PM me the juicy bits. Seriously, though, I avoid those I find to be gossips (in offline life), because I don't like to be around that energy. I find it ugly and draining.

[blush]

Originally Posted by labete

It saddens me that so many of us have been the victims of vicious femme sisters insecure in themselves and needing to cut us down to make themselves feel superior. I only know of three times in my life that I've been specifically targeted for ugly gossip, once by my (family of origin) sister and twice by masculine queers, and those were rough enough and femmes did participate in the feeding frenzy. If anyone still believes that I hoard man-jocks or am a coke fiend, well, I don't know what to tell you. PM me the juicy bits. Seriously, though, I avoid those I find to be gossips (in offline life), because I don't like to be around that energy. I find it ugly and draining.

Well said, labete. I was thinking as I was reading your post that for every horror story (and I've got them too) about femme "friends," I have 10 kumbaya stories about femme friends.

Truth is, other femmes just "get it" in a way that no one else does. Other femmes get the fierceness, the invisibility, the "am I femme enough," and the endurance tests of our loves.