Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Linus

[Posting as a member]

Kobi, I hope if it's ok that I interject here. I don't want to take away something that is important for lesbian members and if I'm speaking out of turn, I apologize.



Martina, I'm a bit puzzled. I'm not sure where an association of claiming an identity automatically means that you're against something. I claim many identities: transguy, geek, Acadian, Canadian, immigrant, intelligent (or so I believe), middle-aged, etc.

But none of those mean that I'm against anyone who isn't in those categories. Just because someone identifies as lesbian (sexual identity) doesn't mean that they are automatically against trans-individuals (gender identity). To me, this kind of idea -- "us vs. them" -- is contrary and does nothing more but to divide the LGBT community as a whole. There are transwomen who are lesbians and transmen who are gay. By claiming those identities doesn't mean self-hatred.

Now, are there lesbians who dislike transmen and transwomen? Sure. But I do not believe that is what this discussion is about. It's about (and Kobi, please correct me if I'm wrong on this) reclaiming lesbian as a positive and proud title and not something that one should be ashamed of, least of all in one's own community.

Linus,

Again thank you for being supportive. Ironic how transmen "get it". No drama, no rudeness. They seem to just get it.

I do, however, take exception to "lesbian" being downgraded to a "sexual identity".

For some of us, it is not a just sexual identity. It is something special, unique, and very specific that defines who we are at the core of our beings and, in many cases, what we stand for. It is way bigger than a sexual identity.

And reclaiming lesbian, minus all the qualifiers and the politics that spur them, is about pride and self respect. It is about taking back something that is being dismantled and parcelled out amongst other groups for their own purposes who seem to have little regard for those they are affecting.

Lesbian is not less than, a lesser part of, outdated, not enough or any of the other dismissal and derogatory things that are happening around it.

And, it is about opening your mouth when you see it happening, calling it what it is, and making it clear it is not appreciated or acceptable. What is happening is hurtful, divisive, dismissive, oppressive, offensive, and simply rude.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm a lesbian, I'm proud to be a lesbian, and I'm a little tired of the last few threads I've checked out being turned into a discussion of what "lesbian" means, followed by lots of people trying to reinvent the wheel by asking "well what about this situation? Do they count?". What the heck? Why is that necessary? I want to come here and support others and feel supported, not questioned.


Is it very difficult to accept that the identifier of "lesbian" can apply to many different people with different interpretations, and that we can all find community with one another, even if we don't share the same definition of the word?


I'm so frustrated with the threads right now and I personally feel like we can't get more than two or three people together without it somehow turning into a need to have a debate or prove a point. I really want BFP to be a place where I can find support and community, and lately I feel like all I find is another opportunity to get really defensive. Maybe I'm just having a bad day, but maybe it's more than that.

I interpreted this thread as Kobi's attempt to say "hey, I'm here. Anybody else?" without the drive to have a big analytical debate. I"m seeing a lot of posturing and defensiveness and that makes me really sad. Why is this happening?


Again, let me reiterate that this is my personal opinion, you can agree or disagree with me as you see fit, and I respect your right to do so.

[Thinker]

Good morning!

I've been away most of the weekend and just now got caught up in this thread (responding to a handful of reported posts we received).

It seems there *have* been efforts made to keep responses/challenges at a respectful level. Thanks for that.

If you don't mind my take on things.....????

There is a little battle here over exactly what 'lesbian' entails. The bottom line is that we are simply NOT going to all land on *exactly* the same definition. But because we all place value on who we are as individuals and how we self-identify, it seems pretty simple that we should also afford that same right to others.

Like I always say... I don't have to agree nor do I have to fully understand, but I respect you and how you feel about it.

I don't feel like I'm giving up anything/conceding by saying that either. There is room in this world for all of us.

Kobi, I'm sorry for your frustration. I know what you did and didn't want in this particular space (thread). But, you know, just about every new discussion that pops up veers away from the original intent and toward something else. A lot of the time that totally sucks, and some of the time it is a wonderful thing.

I do think it is best that we leave transphobia out of this discussion. Perhaps another thread altogether if someone feels the need to do so??? It doesn't feel good to have something like that implied, and it's perfectly understandable why an individual would challenge that implication. In addition, it makes a thread that was meant to celebrate lesbian pride about some other identity.

This is a second gentle reminder to be respectful to other members. If you feel you just can't do that here, then it might be a good idea to visit the thread at a later time.

Thinker (moderator)

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm a lesbian, I'm proud to be a lesbian, and I'm a little tired of the last few threads I've checked out being turned into a discussion of what "lesbian" means, followed by lots of people trying to reinvent the wheel by asking "well what about this situation? Do they count?". What the heck? Why is that necessary? I want to come here and support others and feel supported, not questioned.


Is it very difficult to accept that the identifier of "lesbian" can apply to many different people with different interpretations, and that we can all find community with one another, even if we don't share the same definition of the word?


I'm so frustrated with the threads right now and I personally feel like we can't get more than two or three people together without it somehow turning into a need to have a debate or prove a point. I really want BFP to be a place where I can find support and community, and lately I feel like all I find is another opportunity to get really defensive. Maybe I'm just having a bad day, but maybe it's more than that.

I interpreted this thread as Kobi's attempt to say "hey, I'm here. Anybody else?" without the drive to have a big analytical debate. I"m seeing a lot of posturing and defensiveness and that makes me really sad. Why is this happening?


Again, let me reiterate that this is my personal opinion, you can agree or disagree with me as you see fit, and I respect your right to do so.

This post really spoke to me.

ScandalAndy - I'm going to use this as a bouncing off point!

Folks, here we have a person who is fairly new to our community who has demonstrated something I think we need to be reminded of. I think many of us are skilled at diving deep within an issue and teasing it out because we have been doing it for a long, long time. We have a certain level of dialog in this community that is sometimes very process-y, sometimes very abrupt. I think that can look and feel really off-putting to people who are new to this space.

Especially people reading a thread title, thinking that the thread is going to be go the direction of the thread title, and then once they enter the thread, seeing that people are arguing or debating over minutiae. I am not saying that type of micro-processing isn't a good thing but I want the "big picture" of the thread to be honored.

Some of us have been super pissed off about the erasure of women with the Butch Voices thing going on. I think that type of marginalization can echo in threads like these where "Lesbian" is being defined for the purpose of the thread as "women into other women" and all of the sudden we are discussion bio men, gay men, Butches who identify as men, trans men, etc.

Not at all saying that men or male-identity issues need to be parsed completely from this discussion. Not into that kind of separatism, but I do think we need to be focusing on "women into women".

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This post really spoke to me.

ScandalAndy - I'm going to use this as a bouncing off point!

Folks, here we have a person who is fairly new to our community who has demonstrated something I think we need to be reminded of. I think many of us are skilled at diving deep within an issue and teasing it out because we have been doing it for a long, long time. We have a certain level of dialog in this community that is sometimes very process-y, sometimes very abrupt. I think that can look and feel really off-putting to people who are new to this space.

Especially people reading a thread title, thinking that the thread is going to be go the direction of the thread title, and then once they enter the thread, seeing that people are arguing or debating over minutiae. I am not saying that type of micro-processing isn't a good thing but I want the "big picture" of the thread to be honored.

Some of us have been super pissed off about the erasure of women with the Butch Voices thing going on. I think that type of marginalization can echo in threads like these where "Lesbian" is being defined for the purpose of the thread as "women into other women" and all of the sudden we are discussion bio men, gay men, Butches who identify as men, trans men, etc.

Not at all saying that men or male-identity issues need to be parsed completely from this discussion. Not into that kind of separatism, but I do think we need to be focusing on "women into women".

Please let me add that I really enjoy the micro-processing. There are a lot of brilliant minds here that have very enlightening through processes and are able to view things from perspectives that I myself am not privy to. I really appreciate that type of approach as well, and I don't want anyone to think that I am attempting to marginalize or invalidate those thoughts.




Getting back on topic from my mini derail, I'm proud to call myself a lesbian, but I"m noticing more and more that younger folks are consciously refusing to do so because they feel the identifier is too restrictive. I'm wondering if there are any constructive and inclusive ways to represent lesbian pride as the wonderful thing it is and bring youth back into the community. Thoughts?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Please let me add that I really enjoy the micro-processing. There are a lot of brilliant minds here that have very enlightening through processes and are able to view things from perspectives that I myself am not privy to. I really appreciate that type of approach as well, and I don't want anyone to think that I am attempting to marginalize or invalidate those thoughts.

Getting back on topic from my mini derail, I'm proud to call myself a lesbian, but I"m noticing more and more that younger folks are consciously refusing to do so because they feel the identifier is too restrictive. I'm wondering if there are any constructive and inclusive ways to represent lesbian pride as the wonderful thing it is and bring youth back into the community. Thoughts?

Interesting question. I have an initial response that might grow as I think on it more.

I think there are many ways to do this. For me, it is a multi pronged approach.

The first, is reclaiming the word lesbian for myself. I am a lesbian. I used to use qualifiers and combine terms. Not any more. How can anyone relate to lesbian if we no longer use the word or we qualify it to death? Using it gives visibility that it is still alive and well and perking right along despite what others would prefer to think.

The second, is speaking to those issues surrounding lesbianism. It is speaking up when lesbian is equated with something passe, outdated, not good enough, and all the other negaters that have been mentioned in this thread. It is reclaiming our voice, our power, and our right to be.

The third, is starting threads like this in a zone meant for us. Young folk and newbies need to see lesbians are present and accounted for. They also need to see that we, as lesbians, have similar and dissimilar issues with others under the queer umbrella. They need to see we, as lesbians, can work in concert with other queers on issues we have in common, and we can forge ahead on our own to address those issues which affect us alone.

The fourth, remembering what youth entails i.e. a time to explore and experience, try stuff on, individuals deciding what works and doesnt work for them. As someone who was raised when homosexuality was still a psychistric diagnosis, I am all for taking advantage of the freedoms and options available today! But, all us queers, still need to accept some responsibility for being available to youth who may need us to be there and be visible. We didnt evolve in a vacuum. Neither will they.

[Apocalipstic]

Any suggestions on how those of us who are older and have never been accepted by the Lesbian community (though we definitely qualify, but don't look like we do) can find community and regain our sense of Pride?

[Apocalipstic]

I looked for Butch Femme community becasue I did not find acceptance in the Lesbian community. Though as a Lesbian (yes, a pussy/boycunt/little dick eating one) I seem to be on the fringes in the BF community too.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Any suggestions on how those of us who are older and have never been accepted by the Lesbian community (though we definitely qualify, but don't look like we do) can find community and regain our sense of Pride?

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

But if we want to play this out -- what I see as the stumbling block in the decades-long struggles within lesbian/queer women's communities about who belongs/who doesn't, what the criteria is, who get's marginalized, etc is... (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say)... the reality of institutionalized patriarchy and the internalized sexism and misogyny that results among women. Lesbians, as women who were visibly violating the patriarchy were marginalized. They banded together, closing ranks against patriarchal (read male) influence and control. That was a necessary reaction to patriarchy - being outlaws means being clear about who is safe and who isn't. The internalized part is where those lesbians were suspicious of other lesbians who appeared to embody anything they deemed patriarchal - like any amount of femininity, or too much masculinity, or penetrative sex, for example.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

[ScandalAndy]

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting question. I have an initial response that might grow as I think on it more.

I think there are many ways to do this. For me, it is a multi pronged approach.

The first, is reclaiming the word lesbian for myself. I am a lesbian. I used to use qualifiers and combine terms. Not any more. How can anyone relate to lesbian if we no longer use the word or we qualify it to death? Using it gives visibility that it is still alive and well and perking right along despite what others would prefer to think.

The second, is speaking to those issues surrounding lesbianism. It is speaking up when lesbian is equated with something passe, outdated, not good enough, and all the other negaters that have been mentioned in this thread. It is reclaiming our voice, our power, and our right to be.

The third, is starting threads like this in a zone meant for us. Young folk and newbies need to see lesbians are present and accounted for. They also need to see that we, as lesbians, have similar and dissimilar issues with others under the queer umbrella. They need to see we, as lesbians, can work in concert with other queers on issues we have in common, and we can forge ahead on our own to address those issues which affect us alone.

The fourth, remembering what youth entails i.e. a time to explore and experience, try stuff on, individuals deciding what works and doesnt work for them. As someone who was raised when homosexuality was still a psychistric diagnosis, I am all for taking advantage of the freedoms and options available today! But, all us queers, still need to accept some responsibility for being available to youth who may need us to be there and be visible. We didnt evolve in a vacuum. Neither will they.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

But if we want to play this out -- what I see as the stumbling block in the decades-long struggles within lesbian/queer women's communities about who belongs/who doesn't, what the criteria is, who get's marginalized, etc is... (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say)... the reality of institutionalized patriarchy and the internalized sexism and misogyny that results among women. Lesbians, as women who were visibly violating the patriarchy were marginalized. They banded together, closing ranks against patriarchal (read male) influence and control. That was a necessary reaction to patriarchy - being outlaws means being clear about who is safe and who isn't. The internalized part is where those lesbians were suspicious of other lesbians who appeared to embody anything they deemed patriarchal - like any amount of femininity, or too much masculinity, or penetrative sex, for example.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

I love it when you talk about the Patriarchy!

Yes, I likely have been buying into the stereotype and maybe I need to get out more. I need to let the past go and focus on today.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

I've been thinking about this passivity too. I think its larger than just young people.

I wonder if social media gives us more connectivity to people we might not otherwise hang with is making us less confrontational? More like we need to not upset anyone.

20 years ago I wanted to be a lesbian Separatist (until I was told no blowdryers and tweezers were allowed ) and now I am having to dig deep to say I am proud of even being a Lesbian.

[christie]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Andy -

I snipped your post for brevity -

I DON'T think you are mistaken in your observations of younger generations, but I don't think that its primarily an affliction of LBGTQI youth. I believe its an affliction of youth, period.

We have a 17 (almost 18) year old son who graduated from high school in the spring. I am stunned and disappointed on a daily basis at just how apathetic he is about most things in life. Only rarely do we see him passionately engaged about his beliefs - and I think that part of it is that he is still figuring out what his beliefs are. He has been the instigator at our attending the NOM counter-rally in DC last year. He stood up for a young lady at his school on "purple day" in the midst of a buncha redneck, conservative boys. He has been open with his friends about having "gay moms" and made a point to include Jess as a parent listing in the local newspaper senior edition.

It does bother me that the only thing I have really seen him passionate/engaged about are equal rights and I often wonder if its a direct result of Jess and I having conversations that include him. I wonder if we are failing as parents to expose him to other issues so that he can further explore and define his belief system. It also bothers me that what was important to me at his age is SO far removed from what is important to me now.

I am derailing myself, but to me, you brought up a very valid point about the apathy of youth and I do think that its a very lesbian issue to me as I parent as a lesbian. Perhaps its better in a parenting forum. *shrugs*

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Scandal Andy,

I probably have more questions here than anything concrete to offer.

What do you mean by standing up to people is passe? Bring them here, we'll whip them into shape in no time

What does "ok whatever" signify to you? Is it an ok I hear you, or ok I respect your right to think that way, or more of an ok whatever dismissal kind of thing?

Are you asking if peer pressure affects only the young? In case you are, reread this thread with a different set of eyes .

I am not a parent, nor do I have the opportunity to be involved in young peoples lives on a daily basis. It is hard for me to equate what seemed normal to me as a kid and what is the norm today.

I grew up in an era of being surrounded by protests and movements - gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, gray panthers, Black Panthers, the Vietnam War, abortion rights and probably a bunch I forgot. There were profound changes going on that impacted, in one way or another on everyday life in big ways. (And I wonder why I am tired?)

This stuff spoken to me. It reasonated somewhere deep inside of me. Did my peers have the same kind of cathartic experience with it? No. Did they have the need to address things as I did? No. Did they stand up for themselves or others on a regular basis? No.

I was more social cause oriented. My peers, for the most part, were more social life oriented.

Is it different today?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by citybutch

I have little to say... and much to contribute.

http://writingforstrangers.com/writi...emme-identity/

Originally Posted by citybutch

So simplistic... BUT we did not always have the "label" lesbian....in fact we have had many labels we have embraced. And not always have lesbians embraced butch/femme identity. In fact, there was a time I can remember where butches were rejected as embracing male identity and male roles...

This is merely an observation.. and not a critique of how anyone identifies here...

I find community with you all....

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/lesbian.h...ures_1920-1970

Thank you for these interesting links. I learned some stuff.

At the risk of being repetitive, which is getting as tiring for me as I am sure it is getting for you, this thread is NOT about defining lesbian or qualifying what a lesbian is, or any other derivative of lesbian.

The intent of this thread was for lesbians who identify a certain way to talk about issues related to their reality.

So far, it has been anything but. And the trend continues.

We have a butch zone, a femme zone, a trans zone, and a little late to the party lesbian zone. Within each zone is a heck of a lot of empty space. Is there some reason people have the need to continue to corrupt this particular thread into what they need it to be rather than what it is for?

Want to be supportive? Please do so.

Want to interject your own definitions, realities, need to meld blend blur? To me, that is a deliberate attempt to turn this into something other than the repeatedly stated intent. It is behavior that smacks of fear and feeling threatened. So, again, what is so threatening about lesbians reclaiming their voices and their power as a force in this community?