Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[ScandalAndy]

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting question. I have an initial response that might grow as I think on it more.

I think there are many ways to do this. For me, it is a multi pronged approach.

The first, is reclaiming the word lesbian for myself. I am a lesbian. I used to use qualifiers and combine terms. Not any more. How can anyone relate to lesbian if we no longer use the word or we qualify it to death? Using it gives visibility that it is still alive and well and perking right along despite what others would prefer to think.

The second, is speaking to those issues surrounding lesbianism. It is speaking up when lesbian is equated with something passe, outdated, not good enough, and all the other negaters that have been mentioned in this thread. It is reclaiming our voice, our power, and our right to be.

The third, is starting threads like this in a zone meant for us. Young folk and newbies need to see lesbians are present and accounted for. They also need to see that we, as lesbians, have similar and dissimilar issues with others under the queer umbrella. They need to see we, as lesbians, can work in concert with other queers on issues we have in common, and we can forge ahead on our own to address those issues which affect us alone.

The fourth, remembering what youth entails i.e. a time to explore and experience, try stuff on, individuals deciding what works and doesnt work for them. As someone who was raised when homosexuality was still a psychistric diagnosis, I am all for taking advantage of the freedoms and options available today! But, all us queers, still need to accept some responsibility for being available to youth who may need us to be there and be visible. We didnt evolve in a vacuum. Neither will they.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

But if we want to play this out -- what I see as the stumbling block in the decades-long struggles within lesbian/queer women's communities about who belongs/who doesn't, what the criteria is, who get's marginalized, etc is... (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say)... the reality of institutionalized patriarchy and the internalized sexism and misogyny that results among women. Lesbians, as women who were visibly violating the patriarchy were marginalized. They banded together, closing ranks against patriarchal (read male) influence and control. That was a necessary reaction to patriarchy - being outlaws means being clear about who is safe and who isn't. The internalized part is where those lesbians were suspicious of other lesbians who appeared to embody anything they deemed patriarchal - like any amount of femininity, or too much masculinity, or penetrative sex, for example.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

I love it when you talk about the Patriarchy!

Yes, I likely have been buying into the stereotype and maybe I need to get out more. I need to let the past go and focus on today.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

I've been thinking about this passivity too. I think its larger than just young people.

I wonder if social media gives us more connectivity to people we might not otherwise hang with is making us less confrontational? More like we need to not upset anyone.

20 years ago I wanted to be a lesbian Separatist (until I was told no blowdryers and tweezers were allowed ) and now I am having to dig deep to say I am proud of even being a Lesbian.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

20 years ago I wanted to be a lesbian Separatist (until I was told no blowdryers and tweezers were allowed ) and now I am having to dig deep to say I am proud of even being a Lesbian.

In my early to mid twenties, I too, considered separatism as a lifestyle. I too, have gone through years of trying to figure out all of the nuances and politics involved in being a woman who loves women. I too, struggled with the arguments/dissonance of inclusivity and exclusivity surrounding and muddying our communities, as well as forcing us to grow. Guess in this way, butch and femme lesbians are not so different.

I am one who does still use the definition of "lesbian" as a woman who loves/ has sex with women". I truly do feel that anything else is an ally. While I consider that yes, as Lesbians we created a sub-culture within the larger culture of homosexuals, that "culture" is truly "ours". Those folks who find kinship with us are our allies. Because they may be totally in-tune with lesbian music/ art/ literature, does not make them lesbians. These cultural products came out of OUR struggles and OUR celebrations. Feel free to honor them, but do not feel free to appropriate them.

I totally agree with previous posters who have stated the fact that because I choose to define myself this way (in its limited definition) does not mean that I have to oppose other identities. I can be and am supportive of the struggles legal and emotional of other identities. It also does not mean I have to limit my view of what lesbian looks like.

I am a woman ( who happens to have many masculine traits). Even my way of fucking is masculine ( I am told). Does that make me not a lesbian? Does that make me less of a female/ woman? No, it doesn't. I am still a woman in all of my pain and glory and I do still claim lesbian and do still carry that badge with pride. I have never claimed queer ( other than an umbrella term) as for ME, to be queer would be me fucking other butches. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me. Now, this is not me knocking butch-butch or (any other sexual proclivity). What it means is for ME, as a lesbian, it would be queer( weird/odd) for me to have that attraction. If I did, I would proudly don the queer mantle! If I fucked men, I would proudly claim heterosexual. If I fucked men and women, I would proudly claim bi-sexual. This is just how I see it.

As a woman, I will NOT be told how to dress, how to behave, how to fuck. EVER. As a lesbian, I will wear a huge cock ( or not), I will fuck with passion, I will wear a hat and boots and drive a big ugly truck, I will write poetry and watch the sun fill our skies with soft pastels. I will build a shed, renovate my home, tend our garden, wash our laundry, fuss over wonderful fabrics and spoil our fur babies. I will help raise our son to hopefully be aware of feminism and help our neighbors.

I am happy to see this topic coming up and happier still to see us beginning to own our pride, in whatever identity we fall into. To say "lesbian" is passe is like saying watermelon is passe. It is still here, alive and well even though some folks prefer cantaloupe or honeydew or mangoes.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

In my early to mid twenties, I too, considered separatism as a lifestyle. I too, have gone through years of trying to figure out all of the nuances and politics involved in being a woman who loves women. I too, struggled with the arguments/dissonance of inclusivity and exclusivity surrounding and muddying our communities, as well as forcing us to grow. Guess in this way, butch and femme lesbians are not so different.

I am one who does still use the definition of "lesbian" as a woman who loves/ has sex with women". I truly do feel that anything else is an ally. While I consider that yes, as Lesbians we created a sub-culture within the larger culture of homosexuals, that "culture" is truly "ours". Those folks who find kinship with us are our allies. Because they may be totally in-tune with lesbian music/ art/ literature, does not make them lesbians. These cultural products came out of OUR struggles and OUR celebrations. Feel free to honor them, but do not feel free to appropriate them.

I totally agree with previous posters who have stated the fact that because I choose to define myself this way (in its limited definition) does not mean that I have to oppose other identities. I can be and am supportive of the struggles legal and emotional of other identities. It also does not mean I have to limit my view of what lesbian looks like.

I am a woman ( who happens to have many masculine traits). Even my way of fucking is masculine ( I am told). Does that make me not a lesbian? Does that make me less of a female/ woman? No, it doesn't. I am still a woman in all of my pain and glory and I do still claim lesbian and do still carry that badge with pride. I have never claimed queer ( other than an umbrella term) as for ME, to be queer would be me fucking other butches. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me. Now, this is not me knocking butch-butch or (any other sexual proclivity). What it means is for ME, as a lesbian, it would be queer( weird/odd) for me to have that attraction. If I did, I would proudly don the queer mantle! If I fucked men, I would proudly claim heterosexual. If I fucked men and women, I would proudly claim bi-sexual. This is just how I see it.

As a woman, I will NOT be told how to dress, how to behave, how to fuck. EVER. As a lesbian, I will wear a huge cock ( or not), I will fuck with passion, I will wear a hat and boots and drive a big ugly truck, I will write poetry and watch the sun fill our skies with soft pastels. I will build a shed, renovate my home, tend our garden, wash our laundry, fuss over wonderful fabrics and spoil our fur babies. I will help raise our son to hopefully be aware of feminism and help our neighbors.

I am happy to see this topic coming up and happier still to see us beginning to own our pride, in whatever identity we fall into. To say "lesbian" is passe is like saying watermelon is passe. It is still here, alive and well even though some folks prefer cantaloupe or honeydew or mangoes.

Jess,

This speaks to me on so many different levels. Of particular interest today is how you pointed out that some of us use the word lesbian in a narrowly focused way. Yet, in doing so, the intent is not to take away from others or to be in opposition to others. I would add in to not be in competition with others as well.

I have asked repeatedly in this thread what is so threatening about lesbians, who define very narrowly asking for their own space to talk. I didnt think I was getting an answer. But, I was. I got so caught up in the forest, I couldnt see the trees.

For others, like me, who are connect-the-dots challenged, it occurred to me this morning, that it was people who narrowly define like me who excluded many women and lesbians back in the day.

One group we excluded was the butch-femme community. Thankfully they went ahead and made their own community. Here, those people we excluded found a home, a place to be all that they were.

And, a couple of days ago, here comes this narrow definition lesbian, asking for narrow definition lesbian space to discuss narrow definition lesbian stuff.

Deja vu? Wounds run deep. You, inadvertantly pick at the scars, the rawness of the wounds find the light of day.

Did I connect the dots in the right order?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Jess,

This speaks to me on so many different levels. Of particular interest today is how you pointed out that some of us use the word lesbian in a narrowly focused way. Yet, in doing so, the intent is not to take away from others or to be in opposition to others. I would add in to not be in competition with others as well.

I have asked repeatedly in this thread what is so threatening about lesbians, who define very narrowly asking for their own space to talk. I didnt think I was getting an answer. But, I was. I got so caught up in the forest, I couldnt see the trees.

For others, like me, who are connect-the-dots challenged, it occurred to me this morning, that it was people who narrowly define like me who excluded many women and lesbians back in the day.

One group we excluded was the butch-femme community. Thankfully they went ahead and made their own community. Here, those people we excluded found a home, a place to be all that they were.

And, a couple of days ago, here comes this narrow definition lesbian, asking for narrow definition lesbian space to discuss narrow definition lesbian stuff.

Deja vu? Wounds run deep. You, inadvertantly pick at the scars, the rawness of the wounds find the light of day.

Did I connect the dots in the right order?

Kobi,
Thank you for the response.

I can understand how you might feel some guilt ( this is how I read your post) around a narrow definition that not everyone fits into. I however, do not feel this way with the word lesbian or dyke for that matter.

For me, it IS a narrow definition that encompasses a wide variety of its collective. By and large and for no reason other than to fight oppression, Gay men came together and said "no more!" ( well, first they came together to meet other kindreds, then later organized to fight oppression) Lesbians did the same thing. We were ( and still are mind you) oppressed for nothing more than loving same sex partners. From THIS, came our culture. Not the other way around. ( ok, granted some lesbian/ gay writers wrote books without a defined community already in place, it wasn't until the gatherings/ movements started that these obscure artists gained recognition)

I will never say that I feel all lesbians or even a fraction of them should dress such and such a way, or listen to only female voices or eat whole grains or live up to their armpits in dirt. We are as different and unique as women are from one another. I will however always believe that the common denominator/ definition of lesbian/ dyke is that we are women who love other women.

I never wish to make someone else feel marginalized or less than. I also have no desire to claim something I clearly do not live.

Thank you, again.

[CherylNYC]

I've been thanking everyone. If I missed tagging a post with my 'thank you' it was an oversight. This thread has been a gift to me. The articulate lesbian voices here have been like water in the desert.

I heart Heart. You rock. ScandalAndy gives me hope for our future. You rock, too. I'm loving every post by the butch lesbians. Every single one. I don't want to leave anyone out, but I've practically squealed out loud over posts by Chazz, Kobi, Jess, Bulldog, and Aj. I've waited far too long to hear butch women reclaim 'woman' and 'lesbian'.

Damn, this is good. Many apologies if I forgot to mention someone. I just couldn't keep it in anymore.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I've been thanking everyone. If I missed tagging a post with my 'thank you' it was an oversight. This thread has been a gift to me. The articulate lesbian voices here have been like water in the desert.

I heart Heart. You rock. ScandalAndy gives me hope for our future. You rock, too. I'm loving every post by the butch lesbians. Every single one. I don't want to leave anyone out, but I've practically squealed out loud over posts by Chazz, Kobi, Jess, Bulldog, and Aj. I've waited far too long to hear butch women reclaim 'woman' and 'lesbian'.

Damn, this is good. Many apologies if I forgot to mention someone. I just couldn't keep it in anymore.

Ahh, I made a woman squeal.... And, here I was thinking I'd hung up my squealer-majjig for awhile. it's nice to hear the sound of music, again.

Thank you, CherylNYC. I may be butch, you may be femme

[christie]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I've been thanking everyone. If I missed tagging a post with my 'thank you' it was an oversight. This thread has been a gift to me. The articulate lesbian voices here have been like water in the desert.

I heart Heart. You rock. ScandalAndy gives me hope for our future. You rock, too. I'm loving every post by the butch lesbians. Every single one. I don't want to leave anyone out, but I've practically squealed out loud over posts by Chazz, Kobi, Jess, Bulldog, and Aj. I've waited far too long to hear butch women reclaim 'woman' and 'lesbian'.

Damn, this is good. Many apologies if I forgot to mention someone. I just couldn't keep it in anymore.

Cheryl -

Thank you SO much for saying this! Its one thing for me to sit back and read posts and think, "Wow - that's some good shit - I completely understand that"; however, to have that validated, just thanks.

I feel so fortunate to not only get to share in the posts made by everyone here, but even moreso to have been a witness in watching that journey back to self-acceptance and its been quite amazing.

To me, "woman" has never been in question. I celebrate and rejoice in being a woman. I seek opportunities to set stereotypes of both woman AND lesbian on their ears and usually find them in the most unlikely of places (think line at the local wally world).

I do understand the herstory of how some might not have felt comfortable in claiming lesbian. I'm so glad to see it being embraced.

Kobi - a special thank you for starting the thread and hanging tough. Its spawned some pretty damned good stuff.

Christie

PS - i heart Heart too! I don't have nearly the experience and knowledge of feminism and am always delighted to read her perspective on things.

[christie]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Andy -

I snipped your post for brevity -

I DON'T think you are mistaken in your observations of younger generations, but I don't think that its primarily an affliction of LBGTQI youth. I believe its an affliction of youth, period.

We have a 17 (almost 18) year old son who graduated from high school in the spring. I am stunned and disappointed on a daily basis at just how apathetic he is about most things in life. Only rarely do we see him passionately engaged about his beliefs - and I think that part of it is that he is still figuring out what his beliefs are. He has been the instigator at our attending the NOM counter-rally in DC last year. He stood up for a young lady at his school on "purple day" in the midst of a buncha redneck, conservative boys. He has been open with his friends about having "gay moms" and made a point to include Jess as a parent listing in the local newspaper senior edition.

It does bother me that the only thing I have really seen him passionate/engaged about are equal rights and I often wonder if its a direct result of Jess and I having conversations that include him. I wonder if we are failing as parents to expose him to other issues so that he can further explore and define his belief system. It also bothers me that what was important to me at his age is SO far removed from what is important to me now.

I am derailing myself, but to me, you brought up a very valid point about the apathy of youth and I do think that its a very lesbian issue to me as I parent as a lesbian. Perhaps its better in a parenting forum. *shrugs*

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Scandal Andy,

I probably have more questions here than anything concrete to offer.

What do you mean by standing up to people is passe? Bring them here, we'll whip them into shape in no time

What does "ok whatever" signify to you? Is it an ok I hear you, or ok I respect your right to think that way, or more of an ok whatever dismissal kind of thing?

Are you asking if peer pressure affects only the young? In case you are, reread this thread with a different set of eyes .

I am not a parent, nor do I have the opportunity to be involved in young peoples lives on a daily basis. It is hard for me to equate what seemed normal to me as a kid and what is the norm today.

I grew up in an era of being surrounded by protests and movements - gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, gray panthers, Black Panthers, the Vietnam War, abortion rights and probably a bunch I forgot. There were profound changes going on that impacted, in one way or another on everyday life in big ways. (And I wonder why I am tired?)

This stuff spoken to me. It reasonated somewhere deep inside of me. Did my peers have the same kind of cathartic experience with it? No. Did they have the need to address things as I did? No. Did they stand up for themselves or others on a regular basis? No.

I was more social cause oriented. My peers, for the most part, were more social life oriented.

Is it different today?