OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Mr.Nobody]

I wonder how many bankers and developers and "investors" ever said...hmmm...I don't think these people can afford this home...let's not take their money....

I went this evening, to Occupy Pueblo...I met many people, old and young...some monied, some flat ass broke. Men, women and children of every shape and size and kind were there. I listened to stories of losing family businesses and hungry children and medical bills and job loss. I watched people weep, telling about how scared they are. I saw the fire in their eyes when they talked about how mad they are. I saw them shaking hands and hugging and talking about how can we make things better.

But I didn't hear one of the tell the story of yeah...I ripped off the government and had 6 motorcycles I couldn't pay for and my wife had a new mercedes and my kids were in private school and we ate steak and lobster every night. Now I know these folks are out there, but I really believe they are the exception, not the rule.

I did hear an old woman speak though. She told of her husband of 52 years that had died awhile back. They didn't have any kids and little savings. She had to sell the house to help pay off debt. The house sat for some time and her bills were piling up. By "chance" she met a "real estate developer". He came in and looked around her home. He offered her $58,000. At first she said no, because she was asking $72,000. But another 2 months went by with no better offers and she finally sold. The "developer" painted the house inside and out. Refinished the hardwood floors and "updated" the kitchen. One month later, her house was back on the market for $213,000. Boy, I guess she made the "wrong" choice there! Good thing she's paying for it now living in a rent controlled one bedroom studio apartment!

There is no ONE answer. But EVERYONE should have a voice. People SHOULD be able to say...no, please don't spend my tax dollars bailing out people who want to live off the system. People SHOULD be able to say...no, please don't send all those hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas. People SHOULD be able to say...yes, please pay our teachers more because they are the future of our children! People SHOULD be able to say...no, please mr senators, don't vote yourselves another pay raise. People SHOULD be able to say...yes please, let those people get married. People SHOULD be able to say...no please, don't use $83 kazillion dollars to bail out those assholes that took our money!!!! And they SHOULD be able to expect their voices heard. ALL PEOPLE!!! Even the one's who have made "wrong, stupid, bad, lazy or poor" choices.

And theoretically that's the way our government is supposed to work. But when was the last time your alderman, or congressman or governor came to visit your house to sit over tea and chat about what kinds of things you would like to see changed?
It's time for change......yes?

[SoNotHer]

Originally Posted by Linus

Eric Cantor is a maroon. The fact that the Republicans are continuing business as usual (that is, there is no economic problem and that it's all about the "moral fabric") is not surprising.

His comments here are more telling:

I like your spelling, Linus. In fact he is a marooned moron. :-)

[SoNotHer]

Corny, faded, dated and more relevant than ever:

[Martina]

The prime mortgage market tanked too, folks. There was a bubble. People were encouraged to borrow and refinance. Money was cheap. Every trustworthy source encouraged it. When the bubble burst, responsible folks were put underwater.

[SoNotHer]

The French have a gotten a few things right: cheese, wine, and a nice bloody revolution. They've also endured cycles of largesse and abject poverty. They've seen dynasties rise and fall, and they've said some of the most amazing things about this, namely, that all property is theft and that behind every fortune is a crime. Something to think about.

And then there are the scenarios given to us by writers like Orwell, Bradbury, Burgess and others who envisioned ruling empires like Britain or the US in the full hot mess of post-peak dystopia. Liberty is generally the first casualty. Civility, personal safety and anything like joy are not long behind it.

I posted a link earlier to the bumper sticker artwork that read: Fascism is Capitalism in Decay.

So while we debate who's responsible for what and who's involved and who isn't, and whether or not we want socialism, capitalism or communism, we need to realize, and quickly, that fascism is always the default, and it's ready to assume control in the absence of any other organized and cohesive movement.

Linus is right. It's time we started calling this a depression. And it's also time we started to realize that we may well be on the precipice of gaining or losing everything. Let us hope the unprovoked police brutality in the OWS NYC protest is not a sign of the latter.

[atomiczombie]

1. The Top 1 Percent of Americans Owns 40 Percent of the Nation’s Wealth
2. The Top 1 Percent of Americans Take Home 24 Percent of National Income
3. The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Own Half of the Country’s Stocks, Bonds and Mutual Funds
4. The Top 1 Percent Of Americans Have Only 5 Percent of the Nation’s Personal Debt
5. The Top 1 Percent are Taking In More of the Nation’s Income Than at Any Other Time Since the 1920s

Link:

http://www.alternet.org/economy/1526..._of_americans/

[Cin]

We have learned many variations of the meme that the U.S is a meritocracy and one’s future as well as one’s present situation is a direct result of the choices each individual makes. It has become something of a prayer that the working and middle classes, most especially the white working and middle classes, murmur over and over as they try to keep their heads above water. It’s becoming harder and harder to accept, but these kinds of purposely cultivated barriers are hard to break through. It is a part of our national psyche that the poor are somehow responsible for their plight. It has always been important to believe that. I think it is a defense mechanism that human beings have to keep themselves feeling safe, to ward off the bogeyman so to speak. If you are poor, unemployed, sick, without insurance, disabled or whatever difficult situation you find yourself in then you must, at least in part, be responsible for your own predicament. To believe otherwise is to believe it could happen to you. But as we begin to see it happen to so many this kind of thinking is becoming harder and harder to justify.

Here are some excerpts from this article

http://www.alternet.org/economy/1525..._people?page=1

six ways the rich are waging class warfare
1.Registering the Poor to Vote is 'UnAmerican'
2.Unemployment Benefits Have Created a 'Nation of Slackers'
3.You Can't Really Be Poor if You Have a Color TV!
4.Food-Stamps: 'A Fossil That Repeats All the Errors of the War on Poverty'
5.The Main Causes of Child Poverty Are Low Levels of Parental Work and the Absence of Fathers.'
6.Taxing Working People Less Than the Rich Is 'Perverse'

“class war”: habitually vilifying the unfortunate; claiming that their plight is a manifestation of some personal flaw or cultural deficiency. Conservatives wage this form of class warfare virtually every day, consigning millions of people who are down on their luck to some subhuman underclass.

"The belief that there exists a large pool of “undeserving poor” who suck the lifeblood out of the rest of society lies at the heart of the Right's demonstrably false “culture of poverty” narrative. It's a narrative that runs through Ayn Rand's works. It comes to us in bizarre spin that holds up the rich as “wealth producers” and “job creators.”

And it affects our public policies. In his classic book, Why Americans Hate Welfare, Martin Gilens found a striking disconnect: significant majorities of Americans told pollsters that they wanted public spending to fight poverty to be increased at the same time that similar majorities said they were opposed to welfare.

the United States is anything but a true meritocracy. What millions of white working-class Americans understand – intuitively, even if they can't articulate it – is that class still matters. And by erasing the very idea of class, of structural barriers to getting ahead in this economy, they are left with a nagging sense of grievance against those they perceive to be bringing them down: foreign powers, immigrants, people of color and liberals, with their “job-killing” regulations and the like."
End of excerpts from the article.

Apparently grievance against anything and anyone but the rich

But that is beginning to stop. The blinders are off. People are beginning to see through all the bull shit, deceit and slight of hand designed to keep us from understanding who is really standing on our backs and keeping us down.

[cuddlyfemme]

I'm going to Occupy Columbia on the 21st and can't wait!

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

Exactly!

I am a home owner and luckily not on a mortgage trap, however in 2008 I had a difficult time and was late on credit cards or other financed items. Instead of working with me they increased my interest to 28%! I'm not kidding!

I know at least a dozen people personally who have walked away from their homes and these are people with good jobs or at least they once had great jobs.

Financial institutions need to be accountable now or people will continue to take action. Protesting is only level one. Many are closing bank accounts and moving to credit unions. I'm using more cash these days. I think its about time

[Sachita]

This may have been posted. If not here it is-

http://15october.net/

On October 15th people from all over the world will take to the streets and squares.

From America to Asia, from Africa to Europe, people are rising up to claim their rights and demand a true democracy. Now it is time for all of us to join in a global non violent protest.

The ruling powers work for the benefit of just a few, ignoring the will of the vast majority and the human and environmental price we all have to pay. This intolerable situation must end.

United in one voice, we will let politicians, and the financial elites they serve, know it is up to us, the people, to decide our future. We are not goods in the hands of politicians and bankers who do not represent us.

On October 15th, we will meet on the streets to initiate the global change we want. We will peacefully demonstrate, talk and organize until we make it happen.

It’s time for us to unite. It’s time for them to listen.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Of course my feelings could be wrong. But I'm not someone who would shoot off my mouth unless I had facts and real life experience , and my experiences have caused me to render the conclusions that my feelings and opinions are based on. I in no way ever think I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm simply stating the truth as I know it,what my experience has been and why my view may differ from yours. You know I love ya Julie. I know I pushed your buttons so I'm going to try to unpush them by explaining what I mean a little better. Because I know when there is a passionate debate people will tend to read into things and tempers flair . So here's a little better explaination. Keep in mind you may not agree with me.

There is a hurricane coming been getting reports 2 weeks solid. Everyone is told to evacuate. But instead of doing the right thing, some guy decides I'm not going to do the right thing, even though I'm taking a risk and I know what could happen, I'm gonna stick it out take my chances. The worst occurs. Now he has had warning after warning, 3 days of mandatory evacuations. Even had sheriffs going door to door in case someone was home bound. He still stayed. Now he is in a bad mess, he is forced to the roof top because the house is completely flooded. He is watching home after home swept away and he knows he screwed up. So he calls 911. Now the police the fireman and paramedics have to risk their lives , in white cap rapids, of rancid water full of virus's , bacteria dead animals you name it , to save this guy. Should the tax payers have to foot the bill for the rescue? No way!!! He should. Am I saying he shouldn't be rescued. Hell no I'm not saying that. Did I say he deserves to die , hell no didn't say that either. What I'm saying is he should have to pay for his poor choice, not us. And if a fireman or policeman dies trying to save him, he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter on top of paying for the cost of the rescue service. It's not fair to have to pay for someone else because they made poor choices. I don't agree with it. If that makes me lack empathy so be it. What I can't for the life of me understand is why people think we should. Why people think no one should have to take responsibilty for their actions boggles my mind. You don't think that is a good definition of stupitidy, staying even though you knew you should leave? I do .That was a poor choice . you make call me judgemental I call it a fact. That was plain old fashion stupid, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Now let me guess what's gong happen. Someone is going to read this post. Get pissed and come up with some crazy scenerio that has nothing to do with what I am talking about then try to accuse me of meaning something I never even came close to thinking . Like this , well JAGG what if a steel mill blows up and 50 houses catch on fire, or what if a train derails and spews toxic liquid into a neighborhood, or a gas line explodes and burns up a nursing home, are you going make those people pay to be rescued too. Lets hope your house never catches on fire you never need to be rescued. It's clear you have never had any thing bad ever happen to you and you don't know what it's like to have your arms and legs cut off and need a paramedic. My 3rd cousin didnt tie his shoes one day and tripped on his lace fell down the steps broke his hip had to call a Paramedic are you saying that's his fault and he has to pay for his bad choice?????? I guess you would just leave him there to die. Because he didn't make the same choice you would have, he is just plain old fashion stupid and deserves to die. I think you're the stupid one.

Jagg... Thank YOU for your words.

I am going to address the man not leaving his house during a hurricane. We honestly do not know why people do not heed the warnings when there is a natural disaster coming their way. There are going to be a multitude of reasons as to why people stay. Perhaps the man has a pet, and the pet is elderly and cannot get out. Perhaps he has possessions which mean the world to him. Perhaps is just simply terrified and suffers from Agraphobia. He might also just simply be one of those people who does not believe anything can touch him. I am not so worried about footing the bill, as I am about the lives of the rescue people, who now must put themselves at risk to save him. The other part of this, at least for me. I don't think about what it is going to cost us financially - This is where I have always differed from main stream - I care about how it is going to affect all of us emotionally, with each death we read about.

And Jagg, I have seen people without limbs after buildings have exploded. Though, do to war and terrorism. There was talk of me going to Pakistan/India a few years back -- Both incredibly dangerous places for a woman and for a Jewish Woman - The same came up about Uganda. I am willing to go and take those risks (though it does frighten me). I know what they are - I know how these countries feel about me, and add to the fact that I am a peace worker. Knowing the risks -- I would still like to go. What if I get hurt? Will you take care of me? Or will your mind go to that place, where it might say -- Ahhh... Julie knew the risks - why should we pay for her medical bills or even try and get her out of the country, if she cannot - or who is going to pay my psychiatric treatment if I come back with ptsd. Just using examples - I have no idea what might or could happen, should I be lucky enough to go - If my bosses will let me, they are more afraid for me than I am. Will you take care of me Jagg? Will you fight for my benefits? Remember, I know the risks and I am willing to take them.

Or what about the young woman who was raped hitchhiking? Should we pay for her medical expenses after her brutal attack? Clearly, she knew the risks she was taking, before she stuck her thumb out and climbed into that car.

In life, there are no real experiences - we simply cannot say based on my experience... Because tomorrow your experience might be different and tomorrow something catastrophic might happen, that you simply cannot be objective about. Life is a constant continuum and how beautiful that is. I have seen a lot in my fifty years and I can honestly say... I will not judge or make a decision based on the experiences that I have had. I must always try and remain open minded and clear - try to place myself in another persons situation - if that is even possible. I must always remember first - I am Julie. I am simply a human being with emotions and skin - Tomorrow, I might not be either.

Julie

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by cuddlyfemme

I'm going to Occupy Columbia on the 21st and can't wait!

EXCELLENT! Have you planned your outfit? Made your sign?

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

EXCELLENT! Have you planned your outfit? Made your sign?

Yes, do make a sign. Unfortunately I left directly from work to occupy Wall St., and then left the march for a community policing meeting, so a clever sign wouldn't have been practical. I really missed having a sign!

One of my favourite signs was 'They only call it class warfare when we fight back'.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Yes, do make a sign.
One of my favourite signs was 'They only call it class warfare when we fight back'.

~SNIP~

I've been calling around all morning trying to rent a single tenor drum, or a set of doubles. Apparently I am not the only person who had this idea.
Bummer.

I'm not giving up on the drum.

The scheduled march/ peaceful protest for next Saturday has been all over the news. And, to be fair they are showing how the movement is HUGE all across America and they (the news) are giving it good press. Local news has said nothing bad, nor shown anybody being arrested. It's all peaceful.

World news and Nightly news only want to show the bad. So there you have it. It is being accepted largely as good. The President is coming here
this week to sell his Putting America Back to Work program. This is a large Union City who has been feeling corporate america squeezing out the unions. Perfect timing for him and the Occupy Wall Street Campaign to be coming here. People are excited.

Maybe I am naive, but I am not anticipating rioting or outlandish behavior.
Our police, fireman and paramedics unions have been squeezed (we know how dangerous that is) . I'm hoping more details are released about that so we can be seen and heard with our signs when he comes.

I wrote my letters to my senators, republican and democrats, and basically I let them know I was not happy about all of the in fighting, and I voted for them to work for us, not them. And I'd be happy to vote for the next person if they don't start working. How many of you have written letters?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Most people in this country who are under water or are in foreclosure are so because of criminally over inflated market values, predatory mortgages and unethical credit card companies. All mostly directed by banks, mortgage companies, and their regulators. People were given the illusion that they were living within their means by people throwing misinformation in their faces about the state of our lands market values. I bought my house at peak market value in foreclosure. It is now worth less than that foreclosure price. That is under water and a bad investment on the banks part...not mine. I love my house but if I am overpaying for it what is the point??? The market may never bounce back to what it was. Many other fiscally responsible people have chosen to walk away because of this and I think about it too.

The numbers of fiscally responsible (and always have been) people that are in this situation that are actually exercising financial prudence with walking out just as you say. I think that they will take the licks of a very poor credit rating over seeing (and feeling the effects of) what began as a solid financial choice fall apart due to unethical and unscrupulous lending practices.

As the mortgage situation began to hit the middle-class (of every color), what was really going on gained clarity. When buying a home, there are many factors that have been "smart thinking" in terms of investment. Everything from paying less per month than renting and having something to show for it as well as more disposable income, income tax deductions for mortgage interest paid that otherwise goes down the drain to just being able to have pets, maybe a garden if that is what you like or space for hobbies, etc. It also was a means to be able to turn equity into retirement funding for many- even at what used to be considered "usual & customary" accumulation of that equity throughout the term of your mortgage (not the criminally inflated rates prior to the bubble bursting). Home ownership is not for everyone, but for many, it was a wise choice.

Being in the situation you describe and watching for the point at which your mortgage goes "upside-down" due to what the entire mortgage/banking/investment industry was doing is just the breaking point for many people. The anger is rising. And it should rise. And we all need to stand together and protest and not distinguish between those that might not have had "perfect" credit rating histories or even cut it a bit too close in trying to own a home. If wages had been increasing at a fair ratio to the
"1%" of the wealthy over the last 3 decade, those people would have been fine and enjoyed the "fruits of their labor" which they deserved like anyone else.

We need to dump the stereotypes of the "sub-prime" mortgagee and take aim at the structures of the real problems that impact us all- shoulder to shoulder. When everyone gets ahead, we all do. One accident or major illness, a child diagnosed with cancer, a parent having a stroke is often the difference for someone going from homeowner one month to foreclosure the next. And that consequence ripples out to us all.

Hell yes, I can see getting to the point of saying the hell with it, I’ll cut my losses and start anew. Eventually, credit scores rise and we can pay down debt. Although, I have to say at the age of 60, I feel that my choices are more limited than someone lets say in their 30’s. They have the time to recoup their losses and start anew.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Exactly!

I am a home owner and luckily not on a mortgage trap, however in 2008 I had a difficult time and was late on credit cards or other financed items. Instead of working with me they increased my interest to 28%! I'm not kidding!

I know at least a dozen people personally who have walked away from their homes and these are people with good jobs or at least they once had great jobs.

Financial institutions need to be accountable now or people will continue to take action. Protesting is only level one. Many are closing bank accounts and moving to credit unions. I'm using more cash these days. I think its about time

We wouldn't be having the debates about, what is personal responsibility, and what is the responsibility of the Gov. if banks would work with their customers .
I always wonder why banks won't work with people in things like not being able to pay their mortgage. If the banks would be more flexible we wouldn't need to set up gov. programs with tax payers money to pay someones mortgage for them.
I know they are a financial institution in business with the purpose of making money. They lose alot of money when a house goes into foreclosure. You would think they would do everything they could to prevent losing so much money everytime. Yet if you fail to make a house payment 3 months in a row (this maybe only in Oklahoma, each state may have different laws) the banks starts automatic foreclosure proceedures. No other option is considered or offered. As if this is the only way . They lose a boat load of money,and the former owner loses . It would be smarter on their part to offer something like, freezing the loan payment for 6 months, and just extending the life of the loan by 6 months. That would give the person time to get back on their feet, or sell the house or find a cheaper place to live,and rent that house out. It would be alot cheaper for the bank to not have a payment for 6 months than it would be to foreclose. That's just one idea. I could think of a hundred.
Of course some things are mandatory and necessary that the gov. handle, and have programs set up for. I don't want everything to be tossed on the gov. shoulders all the time. I want the people to be the answer . I want smaller gov. less taxes and more money for us in our wallets. Less rules, less people breathing down our backs, watching our every move. The more we look to the gov. the more programs they design, the more taxes they need to run the programs. Exactly what I don't want.
We want the gov. to dictate some sort of heath care that's affordable to everyone. That doesn't fix the problem. The hospitals will still be able to overcharge us, pharmaceutical companies will still rip us off , doctors will still over charge. What we really need is the judicial branch of gov. to call the pharmaceutical companies in and investigate why
they are charging 90 dollars a pill when it only costs them 15 cents to produce the pill. Change the laws on generic drugs . Stop allowing them to charge an astronomical amount for something they produce for pennies.
Call the hospital administrators in investigate why they have been over charging people for 70 years. And the same with doctors.
First we need to hold the people who are responsible for the root of the problems accountable, and square them away, so they are taking personal responsiblity for their actions, then set up whatever needs to be done to bridge any existing gaps in the system.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by JAGG

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars::seeing stars:

Rather juvenile to the conversation don't you think?

[AtLast]

For the life of me, I don't understand why banks don't do exactly what you are talking about- do whatever it takes to keep people in their homes. They are losing so much more in the long run with foreclosures that, many (not all) of which could be "re-tooled" and the bank could break even. So many of the people in foreclosure situations do whatever it takes to get back on track with a reduced house payment because they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Now, they have to be re-employed, if the main reason they are in this situation is due to job loss, but many people do and will continue to take jobs at less pay in order to save their homes. Eventually, they most likely will either go back to the areas of prior employment or re-train to get ahead in an employment areas that show better promise of a future.

My main thoughts on this actually further than the foreclosure and to the cumulative effects of how seriously the great numbers of foreclosures impact so much more in an already weak economy.

If I had the "magic wand" of forecloserdom, it would be my choice to to put something together for mortgagees that in the end, helps stabilize our economy. In the long run, this stabilization is imperative.

Obviously, I am not an economist! However, there is such a domino-effect when one economic hardship triggers another and when such large numbers of people are having these difficulties at the same time.

Originally Posted by JAGG

We wouldn't be having the debates about, what is personal responsibility, and what is the responsibility of the Gov. if banks would work with their customers .
I always wonder why banks won't work with people in things like not being able to pay their mortgage. If the banks would be more flexible we wouldn't need to set up gov. programs with tax payers money to pay someones mortgage for them.
I know they are a financial institution in business with the purpose of making money. They lose alot of money when a house goes into foreclosure. You would think they would do everything they could to prevent losing so much money everytime. Yet if you fail to make a house payment 3 months in a row (this maybe only in Oklahoma, each state may have different laws) the banks starts automatic foreclosure proceedures. No other option is considered or offered. As if this is the only way . They lose a boat load of money,and the former owner loses . It would be smarter on their part to offer something like, freezing the loan payment for 6 months, and just extending the life of the loan by 6 months. That would give the person time to get back on their feet, or sell the house or find a cheaper place to live,and rent that house out. It would be alot cheaper for the bank to not have a payment for 6 months than it would be to foreclose. That's just one idea. I could think of a hundred.
Of course some things are mandatory and necessary that the gov. handle, and have programs set up for. I don't want everything to be tossed on the gov. shoulders all the time. I want the people to be the answer . I want smaller gov. less taxes and more money for us in our wallets. Less rules, less people breathing down our backs, watching our every move. The more we look to the gov. the more programs they design, the more taxes they need to run the programs. Exactly what I don't want.
We want the gov. to dictate some sort of heath care that's affordable to everyone. That doesn't fix the problem. The hospitals will still be able to overcharge us, pharmaceutical companies will still rip us off , doctors will still over charge. What we really need is the judicial branch of gov. to call the pharmaceutical companies in and investigate why
they are charging 90 dollars a pill when it only costs them 15 cents to produce the pill. Change the laws on generic drugs . Stop allowing them to charge an astronomical amount for something they produce for pennies.
Call the hospital administrators in investigate why they have been over charging people for 70 years. And the same with doctors.
First we need to hold the people who are responsible for the root of the problems accountable, and square them away, so they are taking personal responsiblity for their actions, then set up whatever needs to be done to bridge any existing gaps in the system.

[tapu]

I'm on my little unemployed way today to check out the Occupy Maine protest. Not going to join in necessarily, but I might. Need to scope it out first. And I'm not just going because it's a gloriously sunny Maine Saturday. I want some direct experience.

If there's something to report, I'll report back. Into the fray, the tapu

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by JAGG

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars::seeing stars:

JAGG insists she has empathy, then posts something like this Corkey. I guess Katrina and all of those Elderly folks
stuck on top of their roofs, many of whom died. That was their fault. Poor choice, ya know.........