Labels

Leigh · 11-14-2009, 01:58 AM

Well you know what they say right?

Labels are for soup cans

Mister Bent · 11-14-2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

Looking for a descriptor would be in kind a label, no? .... Yes

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I certainly don't think of my gender identity as a label. To quote someone from somewhere, labels are for soup cans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braedon

Well you know what they say right?

Labels are for soup cans

But why do soup cans have labels? We all know what a can of soup looks like, right? But it sure is handy to know what flavor (because personally, I'd be pretty pissed if I wanted chicken and stars and got split pea).

On the other hand, I'm not having a conversation with a can of soup where I can learn what it's got going on inside.

Which brings me back to Jack's very pertinent comment. Is a label different than a descriptor? If we describe a man as tall and hairy, is that his label? Seems like he's probably much more than tall/hairy.

One can appear butch (physical descriptor), but not be butch, so how does butch apply as a label? Just as D-Money says by appearance she is sometimes (often?) called "femme," but she says femme is not who/what she is.

Another way to approach it - how does label relate to identity? Personally, I agree with BullDog - I don't see my gender identity as a label.

D-Money · 11-14-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

But why do soup cans have labels? We all know what a can of soup looks like, right? But it sure is handy to know what flavor (because personally, I'd be pretty pissed if I wanted chicken and stars and got split pea).

On the other hand, I'm not having a conversation with a can of soup where I can learn what it's got going on inside.

Which brings me back to Jack's very pertinent comment. Is a label different than a descriptor? If we describe a man as tall and hairy, is that his label? Seems like he's probably much more than tall/hairy.

One can appear butch (physical descriptor), but not be butch, so how does butch apply as a label? Just as D-Money says by appearance she is sometimes (often?) called "femme," but she says femme is not who/what she is.

Another way to approach it - how does label relate to identity? Personally, I agree with BullDog - I don't see my gender identity as a label.

you make some really good points ...

i think there is a definite difference between a label and a descriptor.

we can label someone "butch" ... or we can describe them as "manly", "masculine", etc.

we can label someone "femme" ... or we can describe them as "feminine", "girly", etc.

just because a queer woman is very feminine doesn't make her femme.

BullDog · 11-14-2009, 01:01 PM

Mister Bent I certainly agree with you. I don't find the term label to be meaningful at all. The only ways I have really ever heard it used is people asking me why I need a label or people saying they don't need a label. Well for me label has no useful meaning or connection to what my gender identity is. It simply doesn't apply.

I think of label as outside-in. People are making a determination/judgment and trying to define something/someone.

I think of gender identity as inside-out: it is something that is hard won that comes from within myself that gets presented out into the world- whether it be through presentation, finding community (like this site), like minded friends, lovers and partners that compliment my gender identity among other things, and of course the never ending journey of self discovery in all its various, multi-faceted forms. Label plays no part.

It is also very true that someone can look "butch" or look "femme" and not identify that way at all.

I also know that some people find gender identities like butch and femme to be constraining or to not adequately describe who they are. For me butch is not constraining. My personal meaning comes from within, it is not imposed from outside. However, for others butch and other gender identities might be constraining or limiting. I do understand and respect that. I just get bafffled when they equate that to having a label. I don't have a label.

NJFemmie · 11-14-2009, 01:30 PM

At one point, a label was something important to me - only because it seemed important for other people to categorize me. I could care less about labels now. I still use the femme label, but only for descriptive reasons. Other than that, I'm just me doing my own thing, and I am totally okay with that again.

It seemed that the label phenomenon was more of a burden. Now, I no longer feel confined or strapped to the perceptions of other people's stereotypes.

I respect everyone for who they are, no matter what they are or how they define themselves. I have always been the kind of woman who believes "be who you are and not who people expect you to be."

Thank you for listening.

<-- minus the angry rant

Gemme · 11-14-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Money

okay, back to serious ...

for years, claiming 'femme' was very much a part of who i thought i was.

on other butch/femme sites (i don't feel the need to specify) i was that bitch who grilled non-label-lovers who came to the site claiming they didn't label themselves. "this site is for butches and femmes! if you don't identify, wtf are you doing here?! go find your own site, you ... you LESBIAN!" i didn't even realize my own need at the time to label them ... or even that i was doing it.

i was so wrapped up in how important my own label was to me that i didn't even listen to where they might have been coming from- i was blind to everything but what i perceived to be an attack on my own labeling of myself.

in light of the course of my own journey in recent years, i can see myself on the other side of that controversy. i probably deserve it ... (i really was a bitch)

You say bitch like it's not a label unto itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Words

Well, since you're eating crackers made of poor little goldfish then you're obviously not a vegetarian, which rules out the possibility of your being a lesbian, (because everyone knows that lesbians only eat hummus and tabouleh), so...I have to wonder....

Do you only eat goldfish crackers or do you sometimes eat other types of crackers as well (in which case, you must be bi-sexual because everyone knows that bisexuals are indecisive and lack the ability to choose one type of cracker and stick with it)?

Well?

Words

You're cracking me up today!

foxyshaman · 11-17-2009, 03:24 PM

I really appreciate the opinions and thoughts I have read in respect to this issue, here and other places. It led me on a very interesting cruise through my own perceptions and assumptions. I appreciate anything that can make me open my eyes and see things from all sorts of angles. And I must say that the voices here have certainly opened my eyes and thoughts.

I have always been a bit leary to post in these topics because I was not sure I could contribute much 'value wise' to the discussion. And then I thought well maybe I do have another point of view that might be interesting.

I struggled for many years with my own self concept and compartmentalization of my pieces. I have struggled through the years because I felt I walked in two (and lots of times more) worlds. I did not understand why my spiritual and then shamanic work was so different from others. I experienced very masculine journeys, rituals, healings... etc. Hell I can't even build a pretty feminine altar, no wonder the witches wanted nothing to do with me!! (I hope my humor is not completely lost here

). Then I started reading a little here and there about shamans being the third gender, or the multiple gender. Being a disenfranchised no tribe white woman I had no elders to say "oh yes you feel that way because...". Instead I had books written by male dominated historical recorders clinging desperately to their binary mindset, that they seemed fairly incapable of recording the special role shamans held/hold. There is an association of gender 'difference' with supernatural powers; gender-transformed shamans were quite common.

Anyway, my long drawn out point is that I came to understand why I have called myself a tri-sexual for so many years. When I found out there was an actual term tri-sexual I was... stunned really. I am grateful for the converstations I have read discussing gender issues. We all see ourselves through different lenses. I have continued to research anthropological texts and journals discussing the two-spirits, the third genders, the fourth genders... etc.

Thanks for listening to just a few of a foxes thoughts.

11-14-2009, 01:30 PM	#5
NJFemmie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: The original lime-twisted femme Preferred Pronoun?: I answer to most things, especially lesbian. Relationship Status: Still loving my Mare ;) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 4,683 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,343 Thanked 11,419 Times in 2,976 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	At one point, a label was something important to me - only because it seemed important for other people to categorize me. I could care less about labels now. I still use the femme label, but only for descriptive reasons. Other than that, I'm just me doing my own thing, and I am totally okay with that again. It seemed that the label phenomenon was more of a burden. Now, I no longer feel confined or strapped to the perceptions of other people's stereotypes. I respect everyone for who they are, no matter what they are or how they define themselves. I have always been the kind of woman who believes "be who you are and not who people expect you to be." Thank you for listening. <-- minus the angry rant __________________

11-14-2009, 01:58 AM	#1
Leigh Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, etc Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 7,767 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,029 Thanked 13,024 Times in 4,784 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	Well you know what they say right? Labels are for soup cans

11-14-2009, 01:01 PM	#4
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Mister Bent I certainly agree with you. I don't find the term label to be meaningful at all. The only ways I have really ever heard it used is people asking me why I need a label or people saying they don't need a label. Well for me label has no useful meaning or connection to what my gender identity is. It simply doesn't apply. I think of label as outside-in. People are making a determination/judgment and trying to define something/someone. I think of gender identity as inside-out: it is something that is hard won that comes from within myself that gets presented out into the world- whether it be through presentation, finding community (like this site), like minded friends, lovers and partners that compliment my gender identity among other things, and of course the never ending journey of self discovery in all its various, multi-faceted forms. Label plays no part. It is also very true that someone can look "butch" or look "femme" and not identify that way at all. I also know that some people find gender identities like butch and femme to be constraining or to not adequately describe who they are. For me butch is not constraining. My personal meaning comes from within, it is not imposed from outside. However, for others butch and other gender identities might be constraining or limiting. I do understand and respect that. I just get bafffled when they equate that to having a label. I don't have a label.

11-17-2009, 03:24 PM	#7
foxyshaman Member How Do You Identify?: spiritually minded dirt dog Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: canada Posts: 898 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,957 Thanked 2,592 Times in 663 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	I really appreciate the opinions and thoughts I have read in respect to this issue, here and other places. It led me on a very interesting cruise through my own perceptions and assumptions. I appreciate anything that can make me open my eyes and see things from all sorts of angles. And I must say that the voices here have certainly opened my eyes and thoughts. I have always been a bit leary to post in these topics because I was not sure I could contribute much 'value wise' to the discussion. And then I thought well maybe I do have another point of view that might be interesting. I struggled for many years with my own self concept and compartmentalization of my pieces. I have struggled through the years because I felt I walked in two (and lots of times more) worlds. I did not understand why my spiritual and then shamanic work was so different from others. I experienced very masculine journeys, rituals, healings... etc. Hell I can't even build a pretty feminine altar, no wonder the witches wanted nothing to do with me!! (I hope my humor is not completely lost here ). Then I started reading a little here and there about shamans being the third gender, or the multiple gender. Being a disenfranchised no tribe white woman I had no elders to say "oh yes you feel that way because...". Instead I had books written by male dominated historical recorders clinging desperately to their binary mindset, that they seemed fairly incapable of recording the special role shamans held/hold. There is an association of gender 'difference' with supernatural powers; gender-transformed shamans were quite common. Anyway, my long drawn out point is that I came to understand why I have called myself a tri-sexual for so many years. When I found out there was an actual term tri-sexual I was... stunned really. I am grateful for the converstations I have read discussing gender issues. We all see ourselves through different lenses. I have continued to research anthropological texts and journals discussing the two-spirits, the third genders, the fourth genders... etc. Thanks for listening to just a few of a foxes thoughts.