The Femmes That Love You...

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by DeviantDaddy

I cannot speak for him, of course. But at least from my experience when she does get fired up and so worked up while I just shrug it off or roll my eyes... it isn't really about not caring. It is more about, as sad as it may sound, it's more about getting so used to it that it doesn't effect you the same as someone who has not experienced it before.

I actually feel a bit saddened by her having to see such things and experiencing them vicariously through me. But it is incredible to be loved by a woman who will stand by your side through it all.

Don't ever feel saddened by that. Of all the trials and tribulations we have been through, this is a walk in the park to deal with. It is no burden whatsoever. I know how ugly the world is, this is just another aspect of it, I am experiencing first hand, versus through just knowledge and disgust in general.

[Kent]

Just a little bump...

[Nomad]

i'm really nervous about posting this question because i dont want to offend anyone but i'm so amazingly shaken by an experience i had last night that i want to ask people, especially femmes who might have had this experience, for their advice. the two most significant relationships in my life have been with transguys. one died recently and the other i love very much and speak to whenever we have a chance but our lives are separate for a myriad of reasons. i dont have a butch/femme or queer community outside of the planet. (i'm on the east coast). right now i'm surrounded by friends who identify as 'lesbian' and i love and respect them. i just dont feel like one of them. i dont use the word lesbian as my i.d. and i dont feel i'm being disrespectful because of that either. i i.d. as a femme. it's the word that's the rightest for me. sometimes it makes me kind of invisible and i hate that but there's nothing i can do about people's eyesight so i try not to worry about it so much when i know it's not ill intentioned.

last night, because i said i didnt i.d. as a lesbian i got a boatload of anger heaped on my head by 3 women (none of them members of the planet, which is how the conversation started in the first place because i was telling one of them about it when she said she was having a hard time finding people to date) who were so outraged at my 'blatant betrayal of women by reinforcing stereotypes that gay women really just need a good man' and how it was 'a slap in the face to the hard work' they'd done in the community 'to make being gay a safe and accepted lifestyle'. i was blown away by their hostility and by their assumptions and maybe especially by the use of the word lifestyle!

i'm the sort of person who kind of loves everyone. i dont really have any issues with anybody unless they're an asshole and that's usually something we can talk about and sometimes it turns out that i'm the one being the jerk. i dont have any issue with people of any variety. but when it comes to dating i dont date people. i date an individual. i dont want to date a cis-male. i have them as friends but that's it. i love femmes. i have them as friends but that's it. i love butches. i have them as friends and i'd date a couple of them if asked and the time were right. heres the hard where i want to remind people of my disclaimer. i swear to G*d i dont mean to be rude or dismissive and i really apologize if i'm being an ignorant yutz or hurtful without seeing it. but whenever i've been hit on by a female identified butch i typically dont feel chemistry. it just doesnt happen for me. and i dont get why that's wrong. the same 3 women aggressively criticized me last night for 'fetishizing masculinity in women' and i was so stunned and hurt that i actually cried in public which is something i despise doing.

i want to open up my brain to the idea that i'm being a jerk and i need to learn and grow and change and do whatever work is involved in that but i dont honestly feel that i'm turning anything or anyone into a fetish. to me that's like saying i'm turning someone into an object or that my feelings for them arent sincere or based in actual love. i love whoever i love and i'm thrilled by whoever thrills me right? isnt everybody? is there something wrong with me if i'm only attracted to what i think of as queer masculinity? do the angry women have a point? am i guilty of gender discrimination or fetishizing people or do i just know what powers my flower?

oseh shalom

[Electrocell]

No it's how you feel and what turns you on , if these women cannot respect your personal preferences that's their problem not your's. Next time they bring it up tell them you don't judge them for what they like they have no right to judge you for what you like. Maybe you need to introduce them to the planet so they can see there are others that feel differently and the same about things as they do. Educate them.

Originally Posted by Nomad

i'm really nervous about posting this question because i dont want to offend anyone but i'm so amazingly shaken by an experience i had last night that i want to ask people, especially femmes who might have had this experience, for their advice. the two most significant relationships in my life have been with transguys. one died recently and the other i love very much and speak to whenever we have a chance but our lives are separate for a myriad of reasons. i dont have a butch/femme or queer community outside of the planet. (i'm on the east coast). right now i'm surrounded by friends who identify as 'lesbian' and i love and respect them. i just dont feel like one of them. i dont use the word lesbian as my i.d. and i dont feel i'm being disrespectful because of that either. i i.d. as a femme. it's the word that's the rightest for me. sometimes it makes me kind of invisible and i hate that but there's nothing i can do about people's eyesight so i try not to worry about it so much when i know it's not ill intentioned.

last night, because i said i didnt i.d. as a lesbian i got a boatload of anger heaped on my head by 3 women (none of them members of the planet, which is how the conversation started in the first place because i was telling one of them about it when she said she was having a hard time finding people to date) who were so outraged at my 'blatant betrayal of women by reinforcing stereotypes that gay women really just need a good man' and how it was 'a slap in the face to the hard work' they'd done in the community 'to make being gay a safe and accepted lifestyle'. i was blown away by their hostility and by their assumptions and maybe especially by the use of the word lifestyle!

i'm the sort of person who kind of loves everyone. i dont really have any issues with anybody unless they're an asshole and that's usually something we can talk about and sometimes it turns out that i'm the one being the jerk. i dont have any issue with people of any variety. but when it comes to dating i dont date people. i date an individual. i dont want to date a cis-male. i have them as friends but that's it. i love femmes. i have them as friends but that's it. i love butches. i have them as friends and i'd date a couple of them if asked and the time were right. heres the hard where i want to remind people of my disclaimer. i swear to G*d i dont mean to be rude or dismissive and i really apologize if i'm being ignorant or hurtful without seeing it. but whenever i've been hit on by a female identified butch i typically dont feel chemistry. it just doesnt happen for me. and i dont get why that's wrong. the same 3 women aggressively criticized me last night for 'fetishizing masculinity in women' and i was so stunned and hurt that i actually cried in public which is something i despise doing.

i want to open up my brain to the idea that i'm being a jerk and i need to learn and grow and change and do whatever work is involved in that but i dont honestly feel that i'm turning anything or anyone into a fetish. to me that's like saying i'm turning someone into an object or that my feelings for them arent sincere or based in actual love. i love whoever i love and i'm thrilled by whoever thrills me right? isnt everybody? is there something wrong with me if i'm only attracted to what i think of as queer masculinity? do the angry women have a point? am i guilty of gender discrimination or fetishizing people or do i just know what powers my flower?

[Beloved]

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Beloved

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.

Yeah, finding that line between fetishizing and preference is tricky, I think. I used to think dating someone just because they're trans was kind of insulting and fetishizing. Today I feel differently, and just prefer to be with queer people who are attracted to transguys (just as someone can be typically attracted to bears, twinks, butches, femmes, genderqueer folks, women in general, men in general etc.) It really is how the individual sees.

But what I really dislike is how you hear some queer women, particularly lesbians of various identities (and sometimes gay men, though from what I hear, I would probably notice it more if I were into cis gay men, since other transguys I know talk about this happening to them with gay men as well), now speculating on sleeping with transmen "out of curiosity." Basically, just becoming a novelty fuck. Kind of like the transguy version of that Katie Perry song. That lands over the fetishizing line for me.

But I don't think what you posted, Nomad, is fetishizing. That just sounds like preference, and you aren't the one with the problem when other people call you all sorts of things based on your preference. Unfortunately not all lgbt-identified folks are open to other people's preferences and experiences.

[iamkeri1]

If I am attracted to someone why should I have to question to whom or why I am attracted? There have been beautiful femmes in my past that I have been attracted to/involved with, and if the right femme came along, a woman of power, love and kindness, such an attraction might still occur. In my more recent history, however, it has been primarily ftm's with whom I have been involved, though relationships with two of them began as woman to (I thought) woman attractions and later I became aware of their gender discomfort.

I think butches, whether male or female identified are HOT and they attract me. I think FTM's are HOT and they attract me. But what really attracts me is self knowledge and self acceptance. I am attracted to butches who self identify as butches, who like being butch and who are attracted to femmes. For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.

If I met a woman who (to me) was butch as hell, but who did not identify as butch, I would worry that her involvement with me would make her feel pressured to be "more butch" or could result in her pressuring me to be "less femme." This I do not want.
Smooches,
Keri

[thedivahrrrself]

From deviantdaddy:
I cannot speak for him, of course. But at least from my experience when she does get fired up and so worked up while I just shrug it off or roll my eyes... it isn't really about not caring. It is more about, as sad as it may sound, it's more about getting so used to it that it doesn't effect you the same as someone who has not experienced it before.

I actually feel a bit saddened by her having to see such things and experiencing them vicariously through me. But it is incredible to be loved by a woman who will stand by your side through it all.


Though I am femme, I've always been a bit of a weirdo, so I've been stared at much of my life for one reason or another. Now, of course, this doesn't equate to the level of staring that my butch/trans friends get, but it gives me a complementary coping mechanism.

So, I guess I'm past the point of getting upset when someone stares at him or gives us an odd look. I swell with pride, lift my head, and hold his hand a little tighter. Let them stare. I am proud of us.

[Beloved]

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.

Ok...I found this idea rather interesting. I am currently dating an FTM that was never a part of the queer community. We met online and before I met him in person I wondered how he would differ than FTM's I met that were in the queer community for years. Those are the only ones I have ever known.

He was in a heterosexual relationship/marriage for 20 years and even has 2 children that he bore himself. He didn't have any romantic relations with women/femmes at all until transitioning.

Yes, his experiences and perspectives are different but you know what? I am LOVING IT! And he knows I identify as queer and I do not feel any less queer being with him. He's absolutely amazing. I don't care how he identifies. He doesn't really identify himself as queer but he realizes that because he's trans, that's kinda queer in itself.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

If I am attracted to someone why should I have to question to whom or why I am attracted? There have been beautiful femmes in my past that I have been attracted to/involved with, and if the right femme came along, a woman of power, love and kindness, such an attraction might still occur. In my more recent history, however, it has been primarily ftm's with whom I have been involved, though relationships with two of them began as woman to (I thought) woman attractions and later I became aware of their gender discomfort.

I think butches, whether male or female identified are HOT and they attract me. I think FTM's are HOT and they attract me. But what really attracts me is self knowledge and self acceptance. I am attracted to butches who self identify as butches, who like being butch and who are attracted to femmes. For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.

If I met a woman who (to me) was butch as hell, but who did not identify as butch, I would worry that her involvement with me would make her feel pressured to be "more butch" or could result in her pressuring me to be "less femme." This I do not want.
Smooches,
Keri

i get this. i really do. i dont want to be thought of as straight.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yeah, finding that line between fetishizing and preference is tricky, I think. I used to think dating someone just because they're trans was kind of insulting and fetishizing. Today I feel differently, and just prefer to be with queer people who are attracted to transguys (just as someone can be typically attracted to bears, twinks, butches, femmes, genderqueer folks, women in general, men in general etc.) It really is how the individual sees.

The first transguy I dated liked me partly as I wasn't attracted to transguys. In his eyes that made my attraction for him more 'genuine'. My current partner, my husband, partly liked me as I was attracted to a broad range of identities, therefore he felt safe that it was 'him' I was attracted to and not the novelty of his gender. I found both of these attitudes quite normal and understandable at the time.

Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?

Susie Bright provided part of my answer by interviewing a long since transitioned transman (no idea of his name) who assured her readers that he was not offended by the idea of fetishisation. In fact he'd found it made lesbians more likely to consider him a potential partner. I know if I met a boy who demanded I be attracted to cis-gendered men also, or accused me of demeaning the entire trans community by only wanting to date a transman, then I probably wouldn't want to date him anyway.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Quintease

The first transguy I dated liked me partly as I wasn't attracted to transguys. In his eyes that made my attraction for him more 'genuine'. My current partner, my husband, partly liked me as I was attracted to a broad range of identities, therefore he felt safe that it was 'him' I was attracted to and not the novelty of his gender. I found both of these attitudes quite normal and understandable at the time.

Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?

Susie Bright provided part of my answer by interviewing a long since transitioned transman (no idea of his name) who assured her readers that he was not offended by the idea of fetishisation. In fact he'd found it made lesbians more likely to consider him a potential partner. I know if I met a boy who demanded I be attracted to cis-gendered men also, or accused me of demeaning the entire trans community by only wanting to date a transman, then I probably wouldn't want to date him anyway.

Yeah, it depends on the individual. I'm definitely one of those guys who would prefer that a woman I'm with be attracted to transguys (hopefully in conjunction with another sex other than normative cismen..like, queer in some way or other). I won't date straight-identified women, personally. I prefer to date women who are somehow within the lgbt and/or queer spectrum. But at the same time it really depends not so much on someone identifies on the lgbtq spectrum, but how they see you.

Is part of the fetishisation the incorrect idea that transguys are "both a man and a woman" or or a man with whatever assumption about genitalia, or "or an x that used to be a y," or "the body and/or identity of this with the emotional capabilities of that" and so on? If so that's problematic to me...but not to other guys who might identify with that. So yeah, totally individual.

I think its trying to strike that balance between curiosity or interest and making sure to see someone as they see themselves and respecting who they are. So maybe the line isn't always between preference and fetishisation, but between the kind of fetishisation where other people place an identity on top of an individual instead of having a fetish for the identity the person actually has.

I think it depends on the politics of the transguy, too, and the way they see being trans. Some guys just want to be "a normal cis guy," see trans as a "period in their lives" or a "birth defect" and so identifying as straight and being with women who aren't into transguys or who are just into guys generally might make sense for them.

Other transguys prefer to be transguys and not seen as the same sex as cisguys (some hate being mistaken for cismen as much as they hate being mistaken for female and prefer to occupy a more transmale ground or an area that might be "confusing" to many people), with transmale as a different sex entirely than cismale or cisfemale. Just the way many lesbians are only into women or "straight"-identified women only into cismen, I think its logical that some people might largely be into trans people as sexes of their own or also into trans people in addition to other sexes/genders/identities or whatever.

Originally Posted by Nomad

i get this. i really do. i dont want to be thought of as straight.

Right there with you...but I hate how people always assume that if they interpret the people you fuck or have a relationship with as X then you must be Y. Which is why queer is so awesome. No little sex/gender criteria to meet to qualify for a sexuality lol Another transguy I know calls me straight sometimes just to piss me off...and it really fucking works, too. If you want to insult me, call me straight

[iamkeri1]

Quintease, I love your posts!
This is the journey I have been on since my husbands death, and like you, I gave it a lot of thought throughout our relationship, fully aware that it would be a dilema I would face if he died before I did. (The two of us breaking up was never a considertion.) Since his death I dated one ftm off and on for a couple of years and one stone butch LDR for a few months. My FTM partner felt the problem in our relationship was that he was not "queer" enough for me. I did not and do not agree, our problems lay elsewhere. He actually was the one who got me back face to face in the queer community where my previous queer world was strictly online. I am grateful to him for that, though we are no longer together. I am currently unattached and comfortable with that for the short term. I'm still trying to figure out who I am and where my attraction lies.

My SIL gave me this particular piece of wisdom and it steadies me in my search for myself and my future love. "Sweetie, don't stress about this. One day you will meet someone. You will know they are the right person for you and it won't matter to you whether they are male, female or somewhere in between. They will simply be the right person for you."

PS Q, you are not a cowbag of any variety. as my FTM partner used to say. "you're putting too much thought into it", LOL!

[QUOTE=Quintease;620306]
Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?
QUOTE]

[aishah]

nomad...i've found some lesbians can be somewhat trans*phobic and/or not accepting of trans*men. perhaps their anger could be coming from that place...?

there is also an issue (which came up in this thread) of people being concerned about those who only date trans*men as seeing them as something less than men, or invalidating their masculinity. like the idea that trans*men are somehow not men or more sensitive than cismen or whatever i think is where a huge part of this objection comes from...i mean, i know trans*guys who don't identify as queer at all, they identify as straight men, period, end of story, so does that really make their masculinity queer? if they do not define it that way? there are other trans*men who may only be attracted to femmes or who still identify as queer/on the butch/femme spectrum.

i think that's a really sticky subject and it probably depends on the person as to whether or not that's an issue. generally speaking the issue of preference can be really touchy. i mean...i think it depends on where someone's preferences come from. some preferences are just preferences. some preferences are shaped by norms that can be really oppressive and problematic. (such as the preference for thinness, able-bodiedness, race, etc.) sometimes it's just about chemistry or attraction and it's not something anyone can control.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

No it's how you feel and what turns you on , if these women cannot respect your personal preferences that's their problem not your's. Next time they bring it up tell them you don't judge them for what they like they have no right to judge you for what you like. Maybe you need to introduce them to the planet so they can see there are others that feel differently and the same about things as they do. Educate them.

i shoulda had the chutzpah to say all of that!

Originally Posted by Beloved

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

i agree that taking each person on an individual basis is the only way to live. period. i feel uncomfortable slicing out a group of people from my life in a general way. i dont think i'm doing that at all. i think it's just the way i'm wired to be attracted to some people and not to others. but if i were someone who was only attracted to tall people or thin people (like aishah mentioned) would it be different?

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.

i sorta felt that way too but i didnt have the energy or the gumption to say so. i felt really attacked and defeated and then i was mad at myself later for not saying exactly that and standing up to them like a grown ass adult. now i'm madder at myself than i am at them!

Originally Posted by aishah

nomad...i've found some lesbians can be somewhat trans*phobic and/or not accepting of trans*men. perhaps their anger could be coming from that place...?

there is also an issue (which came up in this thread) of people being concerned about those who only date trans*men as seeing them as something less than men, or invalidating their masculinity. like the idea that trans*men are somehow not men or more sensitive than cismen or whatever i think is where a huge part of this objection comes from...i mean, i know trans*guys who don't identify as queer at all, they identify as straight men, period, end of story, so does that really make their masculinity queer? if they do not define it that way?

this is totally a great point and i really thank you for reminding me of it because i didnt have access to it when i was writing my original post. i was too wrapped up in my own issue to consider this point which i know very well. i'm really sorry i forgot it because in forgetting it i realize that i'm filtering people through my own filters and not theirs. i know transguys who i.d. as straight males and those who i.d. as queer. i know folks who dont care if people know they've transitioned and others that do. so i'm guilty here of assuming 'queer' is a part of transgendered i.d. when it isn't necessarily so. thank you for the very gentle and kind reminder. i know that i struggle to think outside my own skin and i can be really ignorant and/or selfish sometimes. i think that i'm just always so damn happy that people transition that i want the whole world to know like it's a damn celebration or something when it's not even my life to celebrate! i dont get the transphobia issue but maybe i dont get any 'phobia' issue when it comes to people because what is there to be afraid of? authenticity? my brain is only wired for assholaphobia i guess. except when i am one that is. i hate being afraid of myself!

there are other trans*men who may only be attracted to femmes or who still identify as queer/on the butch/femme spectrum.

i think that's a really sticky subject and it probably depends on the person as to whether or not that's an issue. generally speaking the issue of preference can be really touchy. i mean...i think it depends on where someone's preferences come from. some preferences are just preferences. some preferences are shaped by norms that can be really oppressive and problematic. (such as the preference for thinness, able-bodiedness, race, etc.) sometimes it's just about chemistry or attraction and it's not something anyone can control.

see this is where i feel like i fit. it's not a 'preference' or a conscious choice. it's just what sparks chemistry in me. a friend of mine describes herself as a 'chubby chaser' and i dont know what to think of that. is it just what floats her boat or is she objectifying people? is it wrong to be attracted to someone who isnt thin? G*d knows there's enough pro-thin propaganda in the world! but when i think of 'chubby chasers' i think of people who are actually kind of weird. is that a double standard on my part? i dont care if the person i'm attracted to is thin or not as long as they're comfortable in their own skin and not in danger healthwise. is that disguised hypocrisy on my part? i dont care about weight but i care about perceived 'masculinity' and how it's embodied in the person wearing it. i feel like an unintentional jerk but i also know that i honestly take every individual as they come and i just wait for them to find a place in my world however that happens. there's no conscious exclusion going on but does that mean it's not taking place?

[aishah]

it's so complicated...sometimes my head explodes thinking about it too!

for me i just try to be conscious about investigating where certain attractions or preferences come from...and be conscious of when my attractions or preferences are coming from a place of - like - being conditioned by a society where only certain kinds of bodies/minds are valued. or being conditioned by certain stereotypes about different kinds of people. sometimes i just like what/who i like. sometimes i find that i'm subconsciously or not so subconsciously letting a prejudice or fear affect how i feel in a situation. i just try to keep an open mind and be really honest with myself about where feelings/attractions are coming from.