Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[Corkey]

As each person is different, we are all individuals living in a society that doesn't respect our personal presentations. Just as there is no single way to describe Butch or Femme, the clothes do not make the ID. It never has and it never will.
We are human beings , each with a path that is different than any other human. I agree with discussing in the *I* and not generalizing.

[Dance-with-me]

Let me try approach this question from a different perspective, sinc I have zero intention of generalizing anyone but clearly not explaining myself effectively:

You live in a community with extremely little diversity in the lesbian community and a lot of open anti-butch/femme viewpoints, even open derision of butches in particular. Within the context of an ongoing lesbian discussion group (with pre-announced topics so no one is surprised) you'd like to open a dialog to discuss gender presentation and expression in the lesbian community, with the hope of both starting some honest dialog and to potentially give potentially closeted butches and femmes in that community a safe space to self-identify and connect.

How would you go about doing that? How would you describe this particular discussion on the schedule?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

Let me try approach this question from a different perspective, sinc I have zero intention of generalizing anyone but clearly not explaining myself effectively:

You live in a community with extremely little diversity in the lesbian community and a lot of open anti-butch/femme viewpoints, even open derision of butches in particular. Within the context of an ongoing lesbian discussion group (with pre-announced topics so no one is surprised) you'd like to open a dialog to discuss gender presentation and expression in the lesbian community, with the hope of both starting some honest dialog and to potentially give potentially closeted butches and femmes in that community a safe space to self-identify and connect.

How would you go about doing that? How would you describe this particular discussion on the schedule?

Invite them to this site. I wouldn't try to open other peoples minds who were genderphobic. It's a waste of energy.

[Dance-with-me]

But I am not assuming that everyone is gender phobic - there is no reason to generalize everyone by the vocalized anti-butch sentiment of others. I am assuming that in this particular meetup group of several hundred women, there are some who are not gender phobic - who perhaps are even butch or femme, or are interested in the topic. Who have perhaps heard much of the anti-butch/femme crap and not known what to say.

[Corkey]

If in the "hundreds of lesbians" you find even a handful of Butches and Femmes who claim that gender identity for themselves you will have found a minority. The vocalized anti Butch Femme is something to pay attention to, because those are the genderphobic, I never said all of them were. Personally I have no time for those types of people.
Butch and Femme are a minority in a minority. I wouldn't say anything to people who are anti any group, I just wouldn't associate with them. Under my breath I may say a whole shipload of stuff, but I tend to ignore those who show their a@@'s publicly.

[Dance-with-me]

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

I am in that un diversified boat of a town. That's why I said invite them here. I don't have any choice, it's either here or nowhere. I don't associate with people who are genderphobic, that's a personal choice. And in this town here is all I have.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

I'm wondering about why you feel so determined to be a part of this group of people??

I understand how it is to not have any *like* people around. We live in lower Alabama. We have either people who are gay who don't "approve" of us or straight people who don't "approve" of us. We stick with people who DO "approve." All our interactions of a personal matter are with straight people who have grown to know and love us for individuals. I mean, we know NOBODY here that is gay, of any gender. But that's ok......for US.

Do you need to be a part of this group?? Could you maybe find a few people who you click with and start with that? I understand wanting to change how people view things but I've learned that when I come in *trying* to change hearts and minds, it never works. Feelings get hurt and usually they are mine.

I try to find individuals and connect one on one. Maybe you could try to start smaller. If you keep putting yourself out there, and be true to who you are, you might just make more progress than you'd think. One of our best friends is a man who used to be a high ranking KKK member. By spending time with us, he's had some sort of awakening. He's our biggest chearleader and protector. All we did was speak our truth and we now have a serious supporter and a voter for gay marriage.


Don't try so hard. Unless for some reason you HAVE to. It would make me exhausted to try to change all those minds. PHEW!


Take Care,
julie

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

I don't know how to write this without it possibly sounding snarky, so I'll just open by saying that I don't mean it that way at all.

But it's easy to say that you're not going to have anything to do with a specific general community when you have choices. When you don't have choices -- when one general community is pretty much all you've got -- you find yourself deciding that it's worth the effort to try and find the kindred spirits in that community, even though they're intermingled with the ones that you really want to avoid. If I want a social life here, I cannot keep myself fully separate from the ones who show their asses publicly because they are going to be at the only public events available to them or to me. I can ignore them, I can look for the ones who seem put off by them, but I can't separate myself from them.

And honestly? I wouldn't be doing this to say anything to them: Those folks will hopefully not come to a discussion like this. I'm hoping to do this quite specifically so that people who are NOT like that can identify themselves.

Dance-with-me, It is worth the effort! GO for it! Keep us posted on your progress! Educators like you are much needed!

...edited to add, and people who like to bring others together are much needed!

[Red Dirt Girl]

Originally Posted by Corkey

If in the "hundreds of lesbians" you find even a handful of Butches and Femmes who claim that gender identity for themselves you will have found a minority. The vocalized anti Butch Femme is something to pay attention to, because those are the genderphobic, I never said all of them were. Personally I have no time for those types of people.
Butch and Femme are a minority in a minority. I wouldn't say anything to people who are anti any group, I just wouldn't associate with them. Under my breath I may say a whole shipload of stuff, but I tend to ignore those who show their a@@'s publicly.

On one level I completely agree with Corkey's sentiment of “no time for those types of people”. I don’t want to feel pressured or required to explain myself or my partner or my preferred interpersonal dynamics romantically, sexually, fill-in-the-blankly, etc. just because someone is uncomfortable or doesn’t get it. If they are living in a majority kind of universe, I don’t think it’s common for them to be asked to explain or defend the way they live. But I also don’t want to assume that perceptions can’t change, that growth can’t occur, that understanding can’t settle into the space once occupied by fear/anger/disgust/whatever. I don’t think it’s a waste of energy to try to pry open a mind, especially when doing so has the potential to ultimately make the world a safer, happier and more free place for me (you, them, we, us…) to live in. In my experience, it is the talking about and being open with the difficult/personal/mind-your-own-business stuff that affords folks the opportunity to change their perceptions. It’s obviously not our job to do this, and it’s certainly not everyone’s cup of tea, but if we are able to safely be out and visible and vulnerable and communicative, we might find more minds opening than we expected. (I finally came out to my 87 year old, relatively conservative aunt who now asks about my partner on a regular basis! Go Aunt Lill!!)

[Greyson]

You might meet with the group's facilitator or whomever is the person that sets up the schedule. Ask them to help you word the topic in such a way to be clear on the topic and in a way that does not point toward blame and shame.

I agree with others here that have mentioned masculine and feminine. Neither of these are gender specific. Finally, you might want to start reading about gender, gender presentation, sexuality, gender in the lesbian community to prepare yourself for the discussion and a better understanding of what others may believe and what yourself believes.

Good luck.