What attracts you to Ftms ......

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by JAGG

When

I read this it instantly ticked me off. But actually it is such
a farse that it's hilarious. Thanks for sharing Anya. It is too funny to even criticize. I can not even take it seriously enough to even care it is too freakin funny.

Unfortunately it isn't a farce.

My favorite cookbook is a Betty Crocker, published in the 1940s. A cookbook...and it actually contains a page of this type of "advice." This is the messaging about the expectations for women...and not that long ago.

[thedivahrrrself]

Ummmm, who is June Cleaver?

[princessbelle]

Many of us have seen the era of "Barney Fife making ice cream on Andy's porch" life romanticized until it hits a sore spot.

Unfortunately the fact of the matter of the 1950s is...

Unless you were a white male of means you were not important.

Women, POC, minorities, children (who were suppose to be seen and not heard) were not important, relevant or worthy of a real life. (real to the degree, they in their own right had their own needs and desires)

And remember this especially....gay people? Let alone FTMs? Forget it. Wasn't happening.

Personally, *i* will take the risk of a modern world of internet and busy lives versus a life of oppression, bigotry and male white supremacy.

Any day of the week.

[femmsational]

Just curious.......what would be the approved of method for those people who do fit best into what's being describe as the "june cleaver".....role, for lack of a better word.

I ask because this comes up over and over and the arguments are always the same and they always go round and round.

I understand that there is a very clear line when speaking about what works for you as an individual. Do so in your "me" voice and don't step on the backs of others to explain why your way works. That should be obvious enough to any grown person who has interacted with other grown people on a regular basis. I understand that when that, very clear line, is stepped over, it's gonna be brought up, as it should.

Where I get hung up about this, especially on this topic is why then, when we are reminded that our way doesn't work for everyone and we need to be more aware of words, thoughts and actions, do we then go into a history lesson of all the ills perpertrated on others during that era?


And please hear this....I am NOT dismissing the ignorant/non-tolerant/dumbass ways in which most rich white men acted back then.

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

I fit this category. It's the me that fires my soul. And I am not old fashioned, weak or antiquated in my thinking. So there must be some way to be okay with both trains of thought. Or at least I would hope, as adults we could figure out a way to be tolerant of everyone that is not me.


Just really wishing for tolerance across the board. Probably another of my many pollyana moments but, such is life.


Take Care,
julie


P.S. What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to acrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by femmsational

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

Some may be, some I know for sure aren't.

How do I talk about what works for us (my other half and I) without upsetting the apple cart.

Serious question. Not trying to cause a snark fest.


And one more thing, there is nothing wrong with wishing there was a little more common decency in this world.


julie

[BullDog]

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

[princessbelle]

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by femmsational

What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to accrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

disclaimer...please note I am posting in a thread about FTM's in the Trans Zone. I do realize that the above could apply to pretty much.....everybody.

[Martina]

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Leigh]

For me it'll always be their energy and just how they are themselves no matter what anyone else says or thinks

[BullDog]

I agree with you 100% Martina.

I also never made any judgements whatsoever on anyone's personal relationships or desires. I haven't seen anyone doing that at all.

What do I like about FTMS- I like and admire FTMS that are comfortable in their skin and those that are feminists and understand and fight for women as equals.

Originally Posted by Martina

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Medusa]

Let me make something perfectly clear:

(and Martina, this is not specifically for you but rather a general note because I don't want there to be any doubt about the note I left earlier in this thread)

I am *not* saying that we shouldn't pick apart desire. I think it's healthy to do that and I think it helps us evolve as a community toward something a little less binary and patriarchal to something more "us".

What I am saying is that there is a way to dismantle desire humanely and with sensitivity to the fact that desire and kink often intersect with -isms.

I get very irritated when adults try to tell other adults that finding something sexy or hot within the confines of their private relationships is wrong.
Why? Because I don't think we have the right to do that. And honestly? I don't want another adult who I am not having sex with telling me that my kink is bad or wrong or blah blah blah.

Because who are you at that point? Who are you to think that you know better for me what I want than I do?

Now, and this where I go back to all I said earlier, we all need to be dismantling our desires on a personal level AND on a community level.

I was on the phone with Snowy earlier and we were talking about kink and how the intersections of kink often have overtones of sexism, ageim ,racism, classism, and lots of other.

I am personally uncomfortable with the idea that age play almost exclusively focuses on having a giggling "younger" baby girl or a good "little" boy. Where are the folks asking for a hot older Femme or a "Grandpa"-type Butch? Does that mean that I view all age play as ageist? No.
I think people's desires are dictated internally and that is, quite frankly, none of my damn business. Or yours.
Where it becomes the business of all of us is if a dynamic is continuously being upheld as the "standard for awesome", especially if it is deeply rooted in the very -isms that we don't want replayed over and over on this site.

I do think, however, that when we discuss things like the above it is reasonable to say to one another "Have you ever considered why age play focuses on younger individuals?" without doing that whole "Well, if you were doing it right, you'd be doing x, y, or z."

I felt earlier when reading this thread that we were going down that road of "anyone who participates in this is X, Y, Z-label because OBVIOUSLY they haven't thought about the ramifications for Feminism, sexism, etc."
I don't want that.
I don't want us to be so quick to judge rather than discuss.

I think that some of you brought up some very good points about rewriting history so that sexist notions of what a "wife" looks like are white-washed so that the dirty business of disempowerment doesn't bump up against anyone's kink.
Thing is, I think it's possible that people are willing to take that role out and play with it in their personal lives in a way that makes them feel empowered. That's a win for Feminism, imo.


P.S. I don't do drive-by' in rep messages so if you want to converse with me then you need to use this thread, a private message, Facebook, my phone #, my email, etc.

[Chancie]

What bothers me is not the desire to dance a waltz with predetermined steps and roles, if that's the dance you most enjoy.

It's the very weird assumption from a bunch of queers that it reflects the good old days.

Who were they good for, anyway?

I know that there are queers who aspire to the financial freedom to a very particular lifestyle choice but

The good old days?

Yes, some young men were more polite to older women than we might see on public transportation but

You would be safe to assume that a young white man sat with his legs spread way out while older Black women stood.

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

ETA PS My post is not a response to Julie's post.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Chancie

What bothers me is not the desire to dance a waltz with predetermined steps and roles, if that's the dance you most enjoy.

It's the very weird assumption from a bunch of queers that it reflects the good old days.

Who were they good for, anyway?

I know that there are queers who aspire to the financial freedom to a very particular lifestyle choice but

The good old days?

Yes, some young men were more polite to older women than we might see on public transportation but

You would be safe to assume that a young white man sat with his legs spread way out while older Black women stood.

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

ETA PS My post is not a response to Julie's post.

LOL!! It would have been ok if it was in response to my post. :-)

Basically, I'm asking the same thing you are. How can we talk about this 'june cleaver' way of living, without going back in history.

I know I call it the good old days, but that's cause I don't know any other concise way to describe what works for me. And normally only with people who are heterosexual. There has GOT to be a way that won't twist everybodys nose outta whack. You know??


julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

I say it for both sides of this coin.

And not just this issue. You, general you, should be able to express an opinion without shitting all over someone elses choices/needs/wants/must haves. It SHOULD be a very simple thing. Or at least I think it should be.


j

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by femmsational

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

I say it for both sides of this coin.

And not just this issue. You, general you, should be able to express an opinion without shitting all over someone elses choices/needs/wants/must haves. It SHOULD be a very simple thing. Or at least I think it should be.


j

It is pretty simple, at least you would think it was. Unfortunately people don't stick to their me place and diss those that aren't like them.

True story read back

[JAGG]

Ya know know they had some pretty cool cars in the 1950's. And didn't cheeseburgers look so much better back then? French fries did too come to think of it. Just sayin

[girl_dee]

just a quick thought.

i choose to live a lifestyle that may be considered similar to the household set up of the 50's. The difference is i am not a barefoot and pregnant, suppressed, brainwashed woman who is under the thumb and complete control of a man. It saddens me to think anyone would want this type of woman. i'm someone who embraces taking care of the home including the chores and dinner, allowed to have my own life and my own work. My feelings and thoughts, wants, needs, woes are all important. i work two days a week outside the home. My work here is appreciated and i am well taken care of. Our home is a source of pride for me, as it was for many women of the 50's. Having a nice dinner for everyone at the end of the day brings me joy. i've never been happier in my life and i hope we live this way forever. i can't call it a kink/fetish. It's just how we live. i love being a housewife, apron and all!