What attracts you to Ftms ......

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by BullDog

At this lesbian feminist household where history matters, I took out the garbage yesterday (doesn't need it today) and Belle is cooking meatloaf, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner. We were both taught good manners by our parents and we don't need to glorify the 1950s or any past eras to treat each other and other people with respect. We are living in 2012 and happy to do so.

Very true. I draw the difference with us and with a lot of peeps here that our chosen ideas of what makes us happy and fullfilled is just that...it's chosen. It fits. It feels right and it works.

As opposed to being dictated by others or society or what Ward Cleaver expects. If it is a choice, that in-itself is a clear, very huge distinction from the 1950s.

Not saying some of the women didn't like that type of life or even like it now, just that there is a choice in 2012. But, in some ways it is even more realitive and true now than donning an apron and putting on make up before you come in the door. Because it is real. It is what i "choose" to do, not because it is what i "should" do.

Femmsational, you are so right about trying to convey an opinion without stepping on toes. I am honestly trying to do that as well as you, and others here. Hard to write into words sometimes.

Good discussion.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Very true. I draw the difference with us and with a lot of peeps here that our chosen ideas of what makes us happy and fullfilled is just that...it's chosen. It fits. It feels right and it works.

As opposed to being dictated by others or society or what Ward Cleaver expects. If it is a choice, that in-itself is a clear, very huge distinction from the 1950s.

Not saying some of the women didn't like that type of life or even like it now, just that there is a choice in 2012. But, in some ways it is even more realitive and true now than donning an apron and putting on make up before you come in the door. Because it is real. It is what i "choose" to do, not because it is what i "should" do.

Femmsational, you are so right about trying to convey an opinion without stepping on toes. I am honestly trying to do that as well as you, and others here. Hard to write into words sometimes.

Good discussion.

LOL!! It is hard isn't it. At least we're trying. language can be so limiting. Drives me crazy.

And good luck to the person that tells me what I "should" do. That would not go over well. But just as what works for you and Bulldog works for you guys, what works for Brute and I is different. And that is ok. At least I think that's ok.

There should be room, especially and IRONICALLY, in a thread in the Trans Zone, for everyone to be welcomed and respected.


j

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by femmsational

LOL!! It is hard isn't it. At least we're trying. language can be so limiting. Drives me crazy.

And good luck to the person that tells me what I "should" do. That would not go over well. But just as what works for you and Bulldog works for you guys, what works for Brute and I is different. And that is ok. At least I think that's ok.

There should be room, especially and IRONICALLY, in a thread in the Trans Zone, for everyone to be welcomed and respected.


j

Yep!! And thank goodness it is 2012 and you DO have a choice. All of us do, well to a certain degree.

I felt sorta out of place posting in here since it is the Trans Zone but others were so i thought it was ok. It is great to post these types of discussion in any of our threads because we have all been, for the most part, oppressed at one time or other. No matter how we ID.

AND, thank goodness in THIS day and age...we can have these discussions and grow and move forward.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by femmsational

LOL!! It is hard isn't it. At least we're trying. language can be so limiting. Drives me crazy.

And good luck to the person that tells me what I "should" do. That would not go over well. But just as what works for you and Bulldog works for you guys, what works for Brute and I is different. And that is ok. At least I think that's ok.

There should be room, especially and IRONICALLY, in a thread in the Trans Zone, for everyone to be welcomed and respected.


j

PS.- also there will be Guys/FTMs/Masculine folk who are attracted to transfolk. Sorry the PS is above the OP but I'm on the road and realized like a dork I left out those in other various forms of relationships


Agreed, and though this is the Trans Zone there are guys here on BFP who attract Femmes/Women/Females who don't fall into binary roles.

I have a hard on for queer folk who are like this.

[Darbonaire]

I didn't say anything about the 50's being "better" than now...for any reason..I said, people seemed to have more manners then...hell..let's say in the 60's 70's & 80's too......point is...people are MUCH more rude & self-absorbed in today's society in general.....but of course...not on this website...<grin>.....

[Kent]

Bumping back to the question of what attracts you to FtMs???

[QueenofSmirks]

If I think about the FtMs I've been /am attracted to, the commonality between them is the way they are comfortable being exactly who they are, their masculinity, and their swagger. Additionally, I've always appreciated their experience of being aware of gender and gender identity. Most heterosexual males I know do not think about this concept ever, or if they have it's from a very juvenile place. Note: I am stating these things from MY experiences with people *I* have known. This doesn't apply to all, just as I'm not attracted to all FtMs, nor do I believe all FtMs are any of the things I said above, not all heterosexual males ignore gender and gender identity. (I think I've covered all the bases...)

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I am not sure why kink was brought up.

I brought that descriptor into the convo because some folks see it as that. Some folks see it as a fetish (see below). Some folks just 'see' it. No adjectives or descriptors needed.

Originally Posted by Martina

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

Originally Posted by Chancie

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

Wow. Just wow.

I haven't said any of this (as opposed to those it is referencing) and I'm offended. Communication is a two way street. The weight of the message does not rest solely on the speaker. Not only must the speaker find a way to get their message across clearly but the listener must make the effort to make sure the message received is the message intended.

I feel that that is not happening.

Originally Posted by BullDog

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

I like how you feel such a connection with history and the impact our predecessors made towards giving us rights and the ability to choose what style we want and/or need to live our lives in. And I think that it's important to be reminded of that, but I do not feel that that should go hand in hand with what is being discussed.

I guarantee when I am engaging with my partner...whether sex specific or not...I do not think of every person who has come before me and their struggles in this world. Perhaps I am narrowminded or selfish or just not observant outside my own sphere but when I am with someone and I am doing something with that person that says "THIS is US", I'm thinking...strangely enough...of US.

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

Okay. I can give you that. I see that. The literal versus figurative analogy. A lot of wires can get crossed when different sides are coming from difference perspectives and I totally get this.

BUT

My panties get into an absolute snarl when it feels like someone is saying 'you are wrong' instead of 'that isn't for me and this is why'. The 'daydreaming' comment feels dismissive to me, like someone's ideal isn't "real enough" for someone else who is not involved in their life at all and not affected by their life choices at all.

Why can't that role be someone's REAL world? Why must the weight of history rest on the shoulders of some girl or guy who just wants to make their partner fucking dinner and do it in an apron and maybe in heels and probably with some rouge on?

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I sure can't and wouldn't tell anyone how to post.

No, but folks....see above...are saying what someone cannot post. Same difference in my mind.

I just feel that bringing up the 50s as the wonderful, poetic, patriotic, perfect moral, best manners way of life, is so far from the truth it is hard not to discuss it and call it out for what it was.

I mean it's cool if that how someone wants to live, but it is important to really see it for what it was. Just pointing out that fantasy vs. reality is important to discuss sometimes maybe is my point.

That's how i see it anyway.

Why? Why is it so damn important for someone to take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them and force a history lesson they may or may not know already down their throat?

Just to be clear, I would love to be able to stay at home. Kids or no kids. Whatever. But the reality is that I have to work, whether I'm in a relationship or not. I don't consider that a "June Cleaver" (Can we please call it something else because I think that name is inflammatory enough on its own?) lifestyle because most of my partners have cooked better than I do and I'm not doing the serving you in heels thing unless it's my choice and then it's going to be ON later that night. So, I take things from this 'pattern' shall I call it and use it as I see fit in my relationships but it does not define me and does not call for a morality lesson every time I engage in it.

I really think I've missed something here. I think it was Snowy that mentioned the Nostalgia thread and I think that a lot of hurt and frustration from when this was brought up in that thread didn't get ironed out. I missed out on what transpired there and maybe that's where some of the 'the 50's were the best damn time in the world' stuff came up. I actually didn't see any of that in here. Again, I've obviously missed something because a group said they did see it in here. Or maybe someone said something that was CLOSE to what was said before and everyone got riled up again, expecting the same thing from last time to happen. Guessing here as I wasn't there.

I really, really tried to let this go (obviously not enough as I am still typing), but it just feels too damn icky to me to do so. I'll be happy to discuss it further with anyone that would like to pm me though, as I do see that some folks are working hard to get the thread back on track.

/derail

I'm in the 'energy' group. I like a lot of masculinity, in whatever form it may present itself, to balance out my femininity. It's like salt on my watermelon, really.