Masculine of Center -- the term

[nowandthen]

[quote=julieisafemme;732408]

Originally Posted by nowandthen

The word masculinity or center? I am not understanding here.

All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

[julieisafemme]

[quote=nowandthen;732428]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

Thank you! I so appreciate learning the roots of words.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by aishah

mainstream butch spaces are inclusive of white butches. mainstream butch spaces are not, by default, inclusive of butches of color. most qpoc i know don't automatically assume we are welcomed in mainstream queer spaces...because we aren't. that is why it is important to be intentionally inclusive.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

Originally Posted by Dude

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

I cant be eloquent right now because it really pisses me off that any event in the LGBT community would exclude POC - or even make POC feel excluded.

How can you have a conference called Butch Voices and NOT INCLUDE ALL OF OUR VOICES???


I also want to add that it really never occurred to me that calling something Butch-this-or-that would make POC feel that they were not welcome because they dont identify with the term Butch.

Call it privilege or ignorance (or hell, both), but it really never would have occurred to me that Butch wouldnt include all of us and I feel like we, as a community (B-F and LGBT), should seriously talk about this more; but I dont mean that in the POC-should-educate-white-folk way, but more of a we-need-to-get-this-shit-out-into-the-open-to-dispel-the-ignorance-surrounding-it way.



Oh, ps - I agree with Greyson: policing sucks.

[Corkey]

So center is male? Still trying to understand, it still doesn't make any since. And yes excluding POC from the community sucks and is wrong as hell, just as is saying male id'd people have some sort of privilege. Try living in my skin for a few days. It isn't any better than anyone else's experience.

[aishah]

i find the fact that bbp puts issues of masculinity at the forefront of their work to be really awesome because i have lived in communities of color that are in crisis because of the intersection of gendered violence and colonialism. i think that's why the term - and their discussions of masculinity and femininity - resonate with me so much. i think their work and the discussions they spark by attempting to re-envision masculinity is very very necessary. (i also have no argument against being grouped under the umbrella term "feminine of center," although i don't find it unproblematic by any means.) i definitely agree that we need to have more discussions about how not to turn around and recreate masculine spaces that are misogynist. and maybe this isn't the right umbrella term. (fuck all the umbrella terms! except, you know, let's find each other so we can work in solidarity. but seriously, fuck all the umbrella terms.)

[julieisafemme]

No! The racial tension came from the objection to the term MoC! This is my experience of being there. BV did include all the voices by trying to use MoC as an umbrella term. Or at least that is what they thought they were doing. It ended up alienating butch women.

I won't say that all who objected to it were/ are racist. There was a lot of unexamined white privilege that was part of that discussion. And ageism.

See and that was the whole point. To many young MoC butch does NOT include them. That is why BV tried to add in MoC to include those for whom Butch does not resonate or feel good.

Originally Posted by Parker

I cant be eloquent right now because it really pisses me off that any event in the LGBT community would exclude POC - or even make POC feel excluded.

How can you have a conference called Butch Voices and NOT INCLUDE ALL OF OUR VOICES???


I also want to add that it really never occurred to me that calling something Butch-this-or-that would make POC feel that they were not welcome because they dont identify with the term Butch.

Call it privilege or ignorance (or hell, both), but it really never would have occurred to me that Butch wouldnt include all of us and I feel like we, as a community (B-F and LGBT), should seriously talk about this more; but I dont mean that in the POC-should-educate-white-folk way, but more of a we-need-to-get-this-shit-out-into-the-open-to-dispel-the-ignorance-surrounding-it way.



Oh, ps - I agree with Greyson: policing sucks.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

No! The racial tension came from the objection to the term MoC! This is my experience of being there. BV did include all the voices by trying to use MoC as an umbrella term. Or at least that is what they thought they were doing. It ended up alienating butch women.

I won't say that all who objected to it were/ are racist. There was a lot of unexamined white privilege that was part of that discussion. And ageism.

I know you are talking specifically about that conference and how the people there reacted, but to be honest, it does feel alienating to me - not as a white Butch, but as a Butch woman.

The term feels to me like it negates the woman in me; and I am not even speaking as a Butch woman who does not claim, use, and identify with masculinity - I do consider myself masculine and I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self.*

That's why I would never use it to describe myself - of course, I would never tell another human being that they could not use it to describe themselves either.








*Note: by "I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self" I meant that I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of me in every aspect that is me because that is who I am - I did not mean that a Butch is not whole if s/he does not embrace both the masculine and feminine.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Parker

I know you are talking specifically about that conference and how the people there reacted, but to be honest, it does feel alienating to me - not as a white Butch, but as a Butch woman.

The term feels to me like it negates the woman in me; and I am not even speaking as a Butch woman who does not claim, use, and identify with masculinity - I do consider myself masculine and I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self.

That's why I would never use it to describe myself - of course, I would never tell another human being that they could not use it to describe themselves either.

Yes I hear you and understand how you feel. There were many other butch women who felt the same way. All I can tell you is that in the rejection of the term there was unexamined white privilege and ageism. The conversations were extremely heated and emotional. What *I* learned was that for many people of color they did NOT feel comfortable in white butch spaces. They did not feel heard. Butch Voices was trying to include those voices.

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

I feel you on this and I wonder if we (community) can &/or should use both then: Butch &/or Masculine of Center.

In my mind - again, this could be my age, my privilege, or my ignorance - Butch encompasses us all; but now that I know that Butch can be marginalizing for POC but Masculine of Center is a more accepted term, I will start using both when speaking about Butches in general.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Yes I hear you and understand how you feel. There were many other butch women who felt the same way. All I can tell you is that in the rejection of the term there was unexamined white privilege and ageism. The conversations were extremely heated and emotional. What *I* learned was that for many people of color they did NOT feel comfortable in white butch spaces. They did not feel heard. Butch Voices was trying to include those voices.

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

Although I do not want to use MOC for myself, I did understand how they believed that Butch was a white identity. I guess because I am old enough to remember when white lesbians shunned using Butch as an identity, and there were POC Butches. Today there are many White Female Identified Butches. I am not saying that is a bad thing.

[Boots13]

I cannot begin tell everyone how much I appreciate the opinons, the facts, the beliefs, the politics and even the bias of this subject.

My challenge is to recognize the culture (my predispostion to white butch culture?) that inadvertantly establishes a bias. I also want to reflect and address who and where I am within that. I guess most notably any unintentional fallout from my staunchly defending my Butch id which then may be percieved as exclusionary... It was in my "blind spot" and I was unaware that in my unabashed support of Butch, I may have set up a predispostion to exclusion. Who knew ?

My head is really spinning over this...
good night -

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Boots13

I cannot begin tell everyone how much I appreciate the opinons, the facts, the beliefs, the politics and even the bias of this subject.

My challenge is to recognize the culture (my predispostion to white butch culture?) that inadvertantly establishes a bias. I also want to reflect and address who and where I am within that. I guess most notably any unintentional fallout from my staunchly defending my Butch id which then may be percieved as exclusionary... It was in my "blind spot" and I was unaware that in my unabashed support of Butch, I may have set up a predispostion to exclusion. Who knew ?

My head is really spinning over this...
good night -

I am not going to speak for you of course, Boots, but for me, I believe this was borne out of out my white privilege.

Simply put: I didnt see it because I didnt have to see it.