Unconditional Love... is it really unconditional?

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

i think people are afraid to love unconditionally because loving unconditionally is hard...or because it sounds airyfairy and impossible. or worse...because of the inevitable pain involved in doing so.

being afraid of being hurt is a cop out. of course you're going to be hurt! you're in love with a human being arent you? who the hell are we to demand that no one hurt us? how can we tell people they have to be perfect when we havent managed it yet? i cannot understand the "you hurt me so now you're not trustworthy" mentality.

how anemic is the love that walks away when things get hard?

before you dust off your indignation...i'm not talking about domestic violence or choices that jeopardize safety. i'm talking about the human beings who fuck up, plain and simple, (and we ALL do it) and then find themselves suddenly single because the love they were part of couldnt hold up under pressure. it's anemic. that's the only word for it. anemic.

glass houses baby. glass houses.

"People are afraid of themselves, of their own reality; their feelings most of all. People talk about how perfect love is, but that's bullshit. Love hurts. Feelings are disturbing. People are taught that pain is evil and dangerous. How can they deal with love if they're afraid to feel? Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. That's honest. Give me that kind of love" Jim Morrison

Interesting when I read the part about being a "cop out", etc, I actually started thinking about how I have a hard time with the concept of being with someone forever. I've never been able to say it to anyone. Like "I will love you forever". I think it is unfair to promise "forever" and maybe "unconditional love". When I hear people say "we will be together forever", my gut reaction is not "woohoo, yay for you", it is more like: "right" *eyeroll*. Maybe I am cynic or a realist or whatever you want to call me... but I'm not sure I'm a subscriber. Life happens, people change, feelings change, etc. If I promise someone -forever- and then it turns out to be -forever for 5 years- there is this sense of having lied, or letting someone down or betrayal.

I'd rather say "I'm in *this* as long as we are happy and it *works*

People have told me that this school of thought is kind of like a "cop out"

Maybe it is...I'm on the fence.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Interesting when I read the part about being a "cop out", etc, I actually started thinking about how I have a hard time with the concept of being with someone forever. I've never been able to say it to anyone. Like "I will love you forever". I think it is unfair to promise "forever" and maybe "unconditional love". When I hear people say "we will be together forever", my gut reaction is not "woohoo, yay for you", it is more like: "right" *eyeroll*. Maybe I am cynic or a realist or whatever you want to call me... but I'm not sure I'm a subscriber. Life happens, people change, feelings change, etc. If I promise someone -forever- and then it turns out to be -forever for 5 years- there is this sense of having lied, or letting someone down or betrayal.

I'd rather say "I'm in *this* as long as we are happy and it *works*

People have told me that this school of thought is kind of like a "cop out"

Maybe it is...I'm on the fence.

I hear where you are at.
So I have a question.
Would you ever get married?

I am asking because I had a lot of the same thoughts you do, and then the past five years (which went by in a blink but in retrospect can seem like a forever) have led me down a path with somebody that I felt like *forever* was a possibility.

No worries, I am still a cynic because with a terminal illness forever for me means something a lot different than it does to most people.

Mind you, if a miracle comes and I live another thirty years? I think I'd still find myself married to Cal.

Have I confused you yet? Because I confused me.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I hear where you are at.
So I have a question.
Would you ever get married?

I am asking because I had a lot of the same thoughts you do, and then the past five years (which went by in a blink but in retrospect can seem like a forever) have led me down a path with somebody that I felt like *forever* was a possibility.

No worries, I am still a cynic because with a terminal illness forever for me means something a lot different than it does to most people.

Mind you, if a miracle comes and I live another thirty years? I think I'd still find myself married to Cal.

Have I confused you yet? Because I confused me.

I don't know if I would ever get married. I haven't really thought that much about it, to be honest. Hell, the concept of living with someone still is "iffy" for me Well, I should say....for may years was "iffy" and now I can think about it without sweating and feeling nauseous.

So, I guess I am softening in my age

Not confused...I think I get it. And I think having a terminal illness puts a way different perspective on things

[Andrew, Jr.]

I believe in uncondition love. I think babies and animals are automatically inclined to love unconditionally because they are closer to the other side. For adults it is harder to achieve.

I believe that unconditional love is unlimited and absolute. Think of the Amish people who chose to forgive the man who shot and killed the children in the one room school house. That is the kind of love that I am talking about.

[chefhottie25]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

I believe in uncondition love. I think babies and animals are automatically inclined to love unconditionally because they are closer to the other side. For adults it is harder to achieve.

I believe that unconditional love is unlimited and absolute. Think of the Amish people who chose to forgive the man who shot and killed the children in the one room school house. That is the kind of love that I am talking about.

I am with you Andrew. I have recently realized that a dear friend of mine loves me unconditionally. She loved me when I was not able to stay clean from heroin and cocaine. I did some pretty horrible things. Now that I am in recovery, I have recognized that she has always found me loveable. I recently thanked her for loving me unconditionally...and she said it wasn't unconditional...she said that she has just loved me unflinchingly. Whatever you call it...it does exsist...and it feels amazing.

[Pretty Woman]

Let me start by saying that I don't believe that altruism exists. What does that have to do with unconditional love you may wonder? In my mind they are inextricably linked since both assume that the person on the giving end doesn't really get anything from it and that in many ways the person on the receiving end can act as they please, for better or for worse. We are humans, blinded by our true motives, looking always for some deeper recognition or validation, basically just wanting to feel relevant on this planet and in this life.
So...I've come to the conclusion that the only person I can unconditionally love is me. And I don't mean in a narcissitic way. I mean that when I mess up, get angry, act out, am selfish, that I can investigate my true motives and acknowledge them, set things straight, give myself a little break and resolve to not keep making the same mistakes over and over again. It's only in that way that I have been able to begin to see clearly that others are also human beings, that it is truly difficult to exact change from the inside out and that I can't ever control another person by my unconditional love dressed up as a doormat, a bossy wog or in any other way that I choose to call things love. I agree with Jo, unconditional love for another is meted out on a daily basis...disagreement, discussion, compromise and sometimes moving on.

[MrSunshine]

it's never unconditional and it's never free....everything comes with a disclaimer or tag these days.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Interesting when I read the part about being a "cop out", etc, I actually started thinking about how I have a hard time with the concept of being with someone forever. I've never been able to say it to anyone. Like "I will love you forever". I think it is unfair to promise "forever" and maybe "unconditional love". When I hear people say "we will be together forever", my gut reaction is not "woohoo, yay for you", it is more like: "right" *eyeroll*. Maybe I am cynic or a realist or whatever you want to call me... but I'm not sure I'm a subscriber. Life happens, people change, feelings change, etc. If I promise someone -forever- and then it turns out to be -forever for 5 years- there is this sense of having lied, or letting someone down or betrayal.

I'd rather say "I'm in *this* as long as we are happy and it *works*

People have told me that this school of thought is kind of like a "cop out"

Maybe it is...I'm on the fence.

i smell what you're stepping in! (sorry, i'm enamored of that phrase these days) i dont know that "unconditional" is the same as or equals "we'll be together forever". i'm a great believer of the "as long as we're happy and it works" thing. when people break up it's not always because the love is gone. right?

i love fairly easily but i only fell in love...hard....exactly one time...and not in my youth either. it was earthshattering, gut-wrenching, heart-pounding, mind blowing, direction-reversing, insane, perfect, eyes-wide-open-to every flaw (for us both), forward my mail to crazytown love....and it's only happened that once. i am still in love that deeply and with that much devotion...and we are not "together" in except on that cellular level that shuttles you into perfect sync everytime we talk. no amount of hurt or distance or separation will ever change that for me.

that's unconditional for me.

the only other example i can think of is a woman i know whose son is a serial rapist. he's in jail for the third time, i hope forever. she hopes so too because his brain is so damn sick that she fears for people when he is not. and she loves him. she never wants to see him outside a jail. but she loves him like crazy.

that blows my little love out of the damn water. i freakin' want to grow up to be her. i want to know...i mean to know without exception...what it is like to love that perfectly.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

i smell what you're stepping in! (sorry, i'm enamored of that phrase these days) i dont know that "unconditional" is the same as or equals "we'll be together forever". i'm a great believer of the "as long as we're happy and it works" thing. when people break up it's not always because the love is gone. right?

i love fairly easily but i only fell in love...hard....exactly one time...and not in my youth either. it was earthshattering, gut-wrenching, heart-pounding, mind blowing, direction-reversing, insane, perfect, eyes-wide-open-to every flaw (for us both), forward my mail to crazytown love....and it's only happened that once. i am still in love that deeply and with that much devotion...and we are not "together" in except on that cellular level that shuttles you into perfect sync everytime we talk. no amount of hurt or distance or separation will ever change that for me.

Isn't that amazing? I've felt that a few times and although I miss being in love, I'm not sure I ever want to go back to that again. lol- it just overly complicates my already complicated life.

Loving isnt hard for me. Sharing space, my space is. To allow someone in that space again it would mean they literally worshiped the ground I walked on, existed to please me and adored me. They would need to be very accommodating to my needs. Otherwise I'm happy spending time with people I love but I want and need my own space. I think my last time really in love was it for me. It would take a lot for me to open that door completely and I'm not sure God makes many humans like that,

[Bit]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

the only other example i can think of is a woman i know whose son is a serial rapist. he's in jail for the third time, i hope forever. she hopes so too because his brain is so damn sick that she fears for people when he is not. and she loves him. she never wants to see him outside a jail. but she loves him like crazy.

that blows my little love out of the damn water. i freakin' want to grow up to be her. i want to know...i mean to know without exception...what it is like to love that perfectly.

Ohhhmigawd, I personally cannot imagine anything more agonizing! I'd never want to know what that feels like. It's hard enough loving ordinary people when they act like jerks... loving someone who does things which could actually be classified as evil? omg no... I would find that to be utter torture.

My heart goes out to anyone who finds herself in a situation like that! I honestly don't think I can imagine anything harder.

[JustJo]

I previously posted this "elsewhere", but it's still true for me...

Anyway...unconditional love...we talk about it as if it's an ideal, a goal, some loftier version of love than the plain ol' everyday kind. And I'm not entirely sure that's true. Don't get me wrong...it sounds lovely. And it is, in fact, the kind of love I have for my child (where I think it's appropriate and well-placed). But I think that unconditional love between adult partners is somehow often misplaced...

It seems like every time I read or hear someone say "unconditional love" in the context of an adult relationship, it's immediately followed by a list of horrible and even hateful behavior. Why is that? Why do we think that because we love someone unconditionally that it means we should accept mental, physical and emotional abuse at their hands? Why does it mean that we respond like that dog...wagging our tails after being kicked? It's almost as if, by picking the partners we picked, they use our "unconditional love" as a license to mistreat us, rather than appreciate us...and that's just wrong.

For me, unconditional love is what I want to do inside of a fundamentally sound, respectful, (and I suppose conditional) relationship.

Let me (at least try to) explain...
If my "partner" abuses me, cheats on me, kicks me when I'm down...then they aren't my partner. We don't have a love relationship. What we have is an abusive relationship, a using relationship or a messed up game. And, if that's what we have, then I'm gone. For me, there is no call to be loving to someone who is abusive in return. Period. Again...just for me...but that's absolutely and completely non-negotiable. And yes...that's a condition. My conditions for being with me are honesty, faithfulness, reciprocated love, no abuse of any kind and true commitment.

Now, if we have those things...then what we have is a loving relationship. And, inside of that, I will love unconditionally. I will love you when you're sick, in a bad mood, struggling with insecurities or confusion, and any or all of your human frailties and foibles. And I expect that you would love me unconditionally and do the same for me. I do not expect perfection or even consistent good behavior...we are human and fallible and magnificently flawed...and I can embrace all of that. I expect that there will be times that I am carrying the whole burden, and times that you will. I expect that there will be times that I don't feel loving, and times that you won't. I expect that we will disagree and argue and struggle with things between us. I expect that we will both screw up and have to ask forgiveness from each other. And all of those things are fine and okay and even good...because they forge a connection...a connection that allows us to love and trust each other unconditionally and completely.