only another butch would understand

[Queerasfck]

Speaking only for myself, I understand the need and importance to have a place for butches to gather and/or feel welcomed. It's a well meaning sentiment to say "only a butch would understand". As demonstrated here clearly, not all butches understand butches, not all butches are the same. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If I want to, I can reduce myself to a cultural stereotype. See EZ fix the kitchen sink! See EZ sport a tie! See EZ watch football! Do I love those things? Yes, I do--even fixing the sink. Many times though I feel like there's a lot of butch posturing that goes on and it bores me, yet I've been guilty of it too on occasion.
Yes, I'm butch, yes I'm queer. It is 45 years in the making. My id is layer upon layer. It's been extraordinary and ordinary. Growing up like many people here I never felt like I fit in all the way, knew I was different from my peers. There was no one like "me". When I realized I was queer I joined the queer community and I made the simple assumption that everyone in it was a fantastic person!! Of couse I know now that it's not that way. And it's fine. So, reading this thread yesterday did bring up the issue of "fitting in" to me. So I was left with the question again, do I HAVE to fit in here? Pick a pronoun, pick a side!
I'm female on my driver's license. I don't see that changing in my future. Yet I have never felt so masculine in all my years as I do today. The pronoun thing? Yes I understand how it can be frustrating for some. If I get "sir'd" in public does that make me more masculine? If I get "mam'd" does that make me more feminine? It doesn't take away from my id. Inside I know. I'm me. My partner, she gets me. My closest friends know me. I'm comfortable in my own skin. I'm not saying any of this makes me better than the next butch. It's just how I view the world.
In the best case senario I would just like to be respected as a person and I try to do the same to others. At the end of the day that's what's important to me. I think most people feel that way.

[Toughy]

This may get to rambling so bear with me. I am going to try to address several posts and ideas without quoting the posts.

Many of you know I am a butch woman...that would be 2 genders and female pronouns. Yes I claim more than one gender. And to make things even more complicated, I also have a part of me......the powered up kinky leather Top/Dom......that is male identified and you best call me Syr. That would be 3 different genders occupying the same body, mind and soul. Each express different facets of who I am and how I move in the world.

Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like. I know the difference in how folks relate to me depending on whether they see me as woman or man. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, however.........I got it and I have to deal with it

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask male id'd and transmen to look at their role in how masculinity is valued over femininity in on-line butch-femme communities. There are 3 b/f websites (US) that I know about. On 2 of them, male pronouns are the default for all that are butch. The jury is out on this website, although I do read the intention that this site will be different.

If a butch decides they are male id'd or an individual decides they are a transman, then you have to take the hard with the easy. If you walk in the world as male/man then you are obligated to address (white) male privilege particularly in on-line space.

Misogyny is played out everyday. It's seen in male pronouns, in fun and fluff stuff that changes man to butch and woman to femme. It is institutionalized in the fabric of our cultures (on-line and r/t).

Men take up huge amounts of space. They are listened to first, they talk more, they talk over women, they discount women and they perpetuate violence against women. JUst watch the Tough Guise video and you will get an idea of what I mean.

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way. Over the years as gender identity came into the culture, this female space has (thankfully) expanded to be inclusive of the varying gender identities that compromise what is now a female queer space.

When I first came on line I was absolutely shocked and dumbfounded to be called he/hy just because I was butch. Only the masculine part of me seen and the woman part of me discounted and/or ignored. I actually came very close to not participating in on-line b/f space.

Male id'd and transmen do change the dynamic of any space they occupy. It's a fact. Men and women act differently. Men and women think differently. Men and women are different. Testosterone changes the way you think and act.

I don't understand why it is unreasonable to suggest that male id'd and transmen step up to the plate and acknowledge their privilege and how it affects interactions. I don't understand why it is unreasonable to expect they will be vocal about dismantling (white) male privilege in all spaces and particularly b/f space.

I think that's all I got right now.

[BullDog]

Thank you so much Toughy. This is exactly what I have been saying. Nothing I have been saying has anything to do with having anyone be unwelcome, feel bad about themselves or hate them. Maybe someone else saying this will help. I sure do hope so. This is an extremely important issue and has absolutely nothing to do with bashing anyone's individual or collective id. I am really troubled that many people do not appear to understand what we are talking about. Hopefully your post will help to clear some things up. Thank you again.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Misogyny is played out everyday. It's seen in male pronouns, in fun and fluff stuff that changes man to butch and woman to femme. It is institutionalized in the fabric of our cultures (on-line and r/t).

Men take up huge amounts of space. They are listened to first, they talk more, they talk over women, they discount women and they perpetuate violence against women. JUst watch the Tough Guise video and you will get an idea of what I mean.

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way. Over the years as gender identity came into the culture, this female space has (thankfully) expanded to be inclusive of the varying gender identities that compromise what is now a female queer space.

When I first came on line I was absolutely shocked and dumbfounded to be called he/hy just because I was butch. Only the masculine part of me seen and the woman part of me discounted and/or ignored. I actually came very close to not participating in on-line b/f space.

Male id'd and transmen do change the dynamic of any space they occupy. It's a fact. Men and women act differently. Men and women think differently. Men and women are different. Testosterone changes the way you think and act.
I don't understand why it is unreasonable to suggest that male id'd and transmen step up to the plate and acknowledge their privilege and how it affects interactions. I don't understand why it is unreasonable to expect they will be vocal about dismantling (white) male privilege in all spaces and particularly b/f space.
I think that's all I got right now.

Toughy, Bulldog, Sharkchomp, Jess, Atomic, Met... all of you really thank you for your sharing your thoughts. I think this is an important topic to discuss. I am very heartened that our community is trying to talk about things that may be difficult to talk about for many.

Toughy, when you say butch-femme is primarily a female space; it started that way.... Do you mean that butches and femmes started with female bodies or is there more to it? You and I are in the same age group and I think we both have identified as butches for all of our adult lives. When we came out, I think in different parts of the USA, The Second Wave of Feminism was the self and media designated leaders of gay womens culture. The term "lesbian" was just beginning to be used in a positive fashion. Many many gay women had trouble acclimating to the word "lesbian."

We did not have a very large consciousness about Trans stuff. To be Trans was not an option for most. How would many of us know we were shades of a third gender or gender that is not static? We did not. I found myself in the camp of Butch-Femme. We were discarded and marginalized by the general population of Lesbians. I know you know this stuff. My point is I believe that many in the generation before us or the generation when we were baby butches, there was no room for female masculinity nor a gender outside of the binary. If you mean the butch-femme community started with people that were born into a biological/cisgender female body, I agree. If you mean female was the primary gender, I agee but I also think if we had more options at that point in time, "female space" would not have necessarily been the default.

Yes, misogyny is in the very fabric of our culture. Like you and Bully I do believe we have a responsibility to examine our masculinity. All of us of the butch bent have that responsibility. Not just Transmen and/or male identified. The larger culture is still assigning masculinity to "men." I think most of us in here know masculinity is not purely a male characteristic.

As for T changing the way we think and act, for me the jury is still out. I take T. I am much more vigilant about how I treat women, femmes. I have not turned into an angry, abusive, sexed crazed "man."

Before I started to take T, it was found I had high levels of testosterone for a female bodied person. I am willing to bet we have female identified butches in our community with higher then "normal" amounts of testosterone in their body. Are they thinking and acting differently?

I'm not trying to pick on you Toughy. I have read many of your posts because although I may not agree with you sometimes, I respect your mind, your intelligence.

As for the White Male Privilege, it does exist. I am not trying to fault anyone. I think Bulldog is just saying we need to start admitting to ourselves that male privilege does exist, and how will we begin to break it down in our community and assist in erradicating old and ignorant ideas and behavior starting with ourselves.

I think if we take a closer look we will find that most butches have been on the receiving end of some male privilege. And, we have also known discrimination because we did not look like the "norm" for a female bodied person.

Finally, "White Male Privilege" and "Male Privilege." I think it is a bit of a different experience for butches, Transmen that are "other." How many black or brown men do we seen in the prisons? At the head of Corporations, in lead positions?

Like Jess says, the Golden Rule is a pretty good start.

[BullDog]

Greyson what an awesome post. Thank you so much. What you said about what I have been trying to say is absolutely correct.

I also very much agree with how all butches have experienced varying degrees of privilege and discrimination. It is also still true that male is valued over female- including in both real time and online queer communities- and that needs to be recognized by everyone before anything can change. Getting defensive or being in denial will not change anything.

I believe we all have a responsibility to be aware of our own impact in the communities we participate in and be aware of the inequities that exist. Otherwise nothing is ever going to change.

You also point to some other variety important factors in regards to history as well as differences between white male and/or masculine privilege and those for people of color.

Thanks again Greyson. Awesome post.

[Just_G]

I, too, was thrown off by the title of this thread....but have been reading as it goes, and here is my .02: I have met a lot of you in r/t and really enjoyed getting to know a lot of you. I do not participate in these deep discussion threads because honestly, some of the language that you all use goes right over my head. It is all a little too deep for me, and I guess I just don't think as deeply or as seriously or as intilectually as you all. Not saying there is anything wrong with that...just not my cup of tea. I am more the class clown than anything.
When I am in the same room and spending time with other butches, I truly just enjoy their company. I have talked everything from sports, tools, home design, and knitting when in the company of butches. (granted, I didn't have much input on the knitting thing...but that is because I can't sit still that long. ) I just love being around likeminded people. People that know we are all different, yet we have some things in common too, whether it is something we have been through or whatever.

I want to apologize if I have ever offended any of you by using the wrong pronoun....reading Medusa's post really made me think about that. I am going to make a conscious effort to be better about that.

As for me; I don't get offended either way. When I am around my friends I have met through the other site, I love that I am acknowledge with masculine pronouns because that is truly how I feel on the inside, and in my head. On an every day basis in my real life...it is always she.

Anyway, carry on....I'll keep reading.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Just_G

I, too, was thrown off by the title of this thread....but have been reading as it goes, and here is my .02: I have met a lot of you in r/t and really enjoyed getting to know a lot of you. I do not participate in these deep discussion threads because honestly, some of the language that you all use goes right over my head. It is all a little too deep for me, and I guess I just don't think as deeply or as seriously or as intilectually as you all. Not saying there is anything wrong with that...just not my cup of tea. I am more the class clown than anything.
When I am in the same room and spending time with other butches, I truly just enjoy their company. I have talked everything from sports, tools, home design, and knitting when in the company of butches. (granted, I didn't have much input on the knitting thing...but that is because I can't sit still that long. ) I just love being around likeminded people. People that know we are all different, yet we have some things in common too, whether it is something we have been through or whatever.

I want to apologize if I have ever offended any of you by using the wrong pronoun....reading Medusa's post really made me think about that. I am going to make a conscious effort to be better about that.

As for me; I don't get offended either way. When I am around my friends I have met through the other site, I love that I am acknowledge with masculine pronouns because that is truly how I feel on the inside, and in my head. On an every day basis in my real life...it is always she.

Anyway, carry on....I'll keep reading.

G!!! I never told you but I have wanted to see you post and express your opinion on some of the "deeper" subjects for a very long time. I don't think this stuff is so intellectual. I have always appreciated your humor and community spirit but I also suspect you have opinions that are as valid as anyone elses. Now, can you teach me a little about not being sooo serious?

[Toughy]

When I am in the same room and spending time with other butches, I truly just enjoy their company. I have talked everything from sports, tools, home design, and knitting when in the company of butches. (granted, I didn't have much input on the knitting thing...but that is because I can't sit still that long. ) I just love being around likeminded people. People that know we are all different, yet we have some things in common too, whether it is something we have been through or whatever.

The post is the epitome of what this thread speaks to: things only another butch would understand. The 'butch bonding' luncheon at the Bash when it was in Oakland was this truth in action. None of us gave a shit about pronouns (we tried to be respectful), male, female, trans, white, black, brown, red, pony, doggie or any thing else. It was an opportunity to be with like-minded butch/masculine folks and to be just yourself.

It was an amazing thing and spawned the Butch Voices Conference.

thanks for saying this G.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask male id'd and transmen to look at their role in how masculinity is valued over femininity in on-line butch-femme communities.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable either. I did take exception to some very specific language that felt exclusionary to me (whether by intent or not).

I’d like to note that BullDog initially recommended Tough Guise to all masculine individuals and suggested we all examine our masculinity. In subsequent posts by others, and yours here, the directive has been mysteriously pared down to focus more on those with male identity. The issue was presented as relevant to masculinity, not exclusively male identity. Then BullDog made the leap to male privilege. Unfortunately, marrying those two points as she did in her post has served to cloud the issue. I say “unfortunately” because I think each are worthy of further examination and dialog on their own.

If we’re talking about masculinity and needing to examine it and how it plays out in online space, then there can be no exclusion from that responsibility for non-male id’ed butches, because to do so perpetuates the fallacy of a hierarchy (i.e., who has "more masculinity").

The conversation about male privilege and its relevance in this venue is one well worth having – as heated as it is likely to be.

Originally Posted by Toughy

If a butch decides they are male id'd or an individual decides they are a transman, then you have to take the hard with the easy. If you walk in the world as male/man then you are obligated to address (white) male privilege particularly in on-line space.

When discussing male privilege you cannot lump male id’ed, non-transitioned (of the non-passing variety) individuals in with those who navigate the world at large as men. I know I wouldn’t be alone in enumerating the ways in which acknowledging my male, or even masculine, nature has never made anything “easier” for me. The very notion is absurd.

When talking about male privilege, don’t lump me in that pile because I have a preference for male pronouns in the very limited applications in my life where I can experience them. Accepting the assertion that I don’t have male privilege in real time, show me the ways in which it is viewed that male identified folks experience male privilege in an online space (outside of the aforementioned default male pronoun usage, which I have not personally experience).

Bottomline? I’m not trying to sell you what the patriarchy would have you buy. But, I reviewed the checklist – male privilege? I just don’t have it. I’m not in denial, I’m real. Further, I disbelieve transfolk can be saddled with it (other than as a veil, a veneer of privilege with serious limitations and exclusions). I do believe that a lot of what's being said here, however, sounds a lot like transphobia.

Toughy, you said, “Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like.” I’m going to accept that as your acknowledgement – just as you say others need to acknowledge - that you have male privilege. I applaud you for being willing to be the first to take that step forward. It’s one I, too, would have taken if I understood what it feels like to personally experience male privilege.

Respectfully, I have no desire to negate your (collective) experiences online of erasure, or of not being seen (though I do think you are very much seen and heard). I don’t want to dismiss or discredit your feelings around these issues (I have argued alongside some of you in defense of female masculinity). I simply believe that placing the responsibility for that condition on the male privilege of certain types of butches is invalid assignment.

[Toughy]

Greyson you make some excellent points and for simplicities sake and to keep me from rambling to much I will use this color to respond.

Originally Posted by Greyson

Toughy, Bulldog, Sharkchomp, Jess, Atomic, Met... all of you really thank you for your sharing your thoughts. I think this is an important topic to discuss. I am very heartened that our community is trying to talk about things that may be difficult to talk about for many.

Toughy, when you say butch-femme is primarily a female space; it started that way.... Do you mean that butches and femmes started with female bodies or is there more to it? You and I are in the same age group and I think we both have identified as butches for all of our adult lives. When we came out, I think in different parts of the USA, The Second Wave of Feminism was the self and media designated leaders of gay womens culture. The term "lesbian" was just beginning to be used in a positive fashion. Many many gay women had trouble acclimating to the word "lesbian."

We did not have a very large consciousness about Trans stuff. To be Trans was not an option for most. How would many of us know we were shades of a third gender or gender that is not static? We did not. I found myself in the camp of Butch-Femme. We were discarded and marginalized by the general population of Lesbians. I know you know this stuff. My point is I believe that many in the generation before us or the generation when we were baby butches, there was no room for female masculinity nor a gender outside of the binary. If you mean the butch-femme community started with people that were born into a biological/cisgender female body, I agree. If you mean female was the primary gender, I agee but I also think if we had more options at that point in time, "female space" would not have necessarily been the default.

Yep we are the same age and have been butch since birth. I sometimes find it difficult to talk about the early 70's with the meanings of the present language. There was no conversation about gender and gender identity. It didn't exist. I really did just mean butch was female and/or woman identity at that time. And I would agree that had other options existed then, butch certainly may not have been a female/woman id.

The 'hate the wanna be manbutch' and the total rejection of femininity as in hair make-up or jewelry that was the hallmark of 2nd Wave Lesbian Feminism really had no legs in Amarillo Tx or in the Army. It was butch or femme or kiki.

Yes, misogyny is in the very fabric of our culture. Like you and Bully I do believe we have a responsibility to examine our masculinity. All of us of the butch bent have that responsibility. Not just Transmen and/or male identified. The larger culture is still assigning masculinity to "men." I think most of us in here know masculinity is not purely a male characteristic.

Yes I did leave out non-male id'd folks. I agree that all of us who are masculine (regardless of id) need to examine masculinity and it's power in our society and culture. I do think it is imperative and incumbent and a duty that those who are male/trans id'd take a really close look at it. If you walk in the world as a man you have a huge responsibility to lead the change of the paradigm about what masculine and male and man actually means. It seems to me male/trans id requires one to be in the forefront for change.

I know when I am perceived as man, I truly try to be aware of how I perform man. (And yes there are times I do nothing to suggest I am not a man.) How do I act? What do I say? How do I respond to sexism and negative comments about women?

As for T changing the way we think and act, for me the jury is still out. I take T. I am much more vigilant about how I treat women, femmes. I have not turned into an angry, abusive, sexed crazed "man."

Before I started to take T, it was found I had high levels of testosterone for a female bodied person. I am willing to bet we have female identified butches in our community with higher then "normal" amounts of testosterone in their body. Are they thinking and acting differently?

Being in the upper end of the normal range of T levels for a woman is an entirely different thing than the levels reached and maintained when one transitions and becomes hormonally male. I was not insinuating in any way that all folks who use T have 'roid rage and become evil incarnate.

I'm not trying to pick on you Toughy. I have read many of your posts because although I may not agree with you sometimes, I respect your mind, your intelligence.

As for the White Male Privilege, it does exist. I am not trying to fault anyone. I think Bulldog is just saying we need to start admitting to ourselves that male privilege does exist, and how will we begin to break it down in our community and assist in erradicating old and ignorant ideas and behavior starting with ourselves.

I think if we take a closer look we will find that most butches have been on the receiving end of some male privilege. And, we have also known discrimination because we did not look like the "norm" for a female bodied person.

Finally, "White Male Privilege" and "Male Privilege." I think it is a bit of a different experience for butches, Transmen that are "other." How many black or brown men do we seen in the prisons? At the head of Corporations, in lead positions?

Like Jess says, the Golden Rule is a pretty good start.

yes yes and yes.........agreed on your last paragraphs.

My friend, I would never think you are picking on me. I see you as thoughtful, insightful, gentle and always courteous. This is a discussion of really difficult issues and concepts, and I think we all do well when we speak from our hearts.

[Liam]

The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's.

Tapestry

It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women,
a string labeled community with knots so obvious,
yet the adjoining fiber elusive.
Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership,
silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing,
it is a comfortable existence.

Where are your voices sisters?
How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away?
A wise man once spoke of stones and blame,
no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee.
Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance,
and righteously climb over the lives that you have
discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy.
Are you ignorant of your own mistakes?
Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness?
Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons?

There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle,
success measured only by the individual,
not the collective.
Set your houses in order sisters—
tend to your own housekeeping.
Speak of yourself, not others.
Divisions and factions evade the warp,
the thread could be pulled,
the weaving unraveled.

© 1982 K. Berryman

No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me.

Liam

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Liam

The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's.

Tapestry

It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women,
a string labeled community with knots so obvious,
yet the adjoining fiber elusive.
Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership,
silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing,
it is a comfortable existence.

Where are your voices sisters?
How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away?
A wise man once spoke of stones and blame,
no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee.
Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance,
and righteously climb over the lives that you have
discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy.
Are you ignorant of your own mistakes?
Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness?
Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons?

There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle,
success measured only by the individual,
not the collective.
Set your houses in order sisters—
tend to your own housekeeping.
Speak of yourself, not others.
Divisions and factions evade the warp,
the thread could be pulled,
the weaving unraveled.

© 1982 K. Berryman

No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me.

Liam

This is a beautiful piece of writing.

However, the final sentence you have added...is tragic.



And I sure as hell hope that before dismissing anyones
presence here as valid, that folks learn to inspect
their own words first and how hurtful
and divisive they really are.

[evolveme]

"There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle..."

I'm always disappointed, but rarely surprised, when adults have a difficult time stomaching the hard conversations. For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

I don't see dissent as a displeasure, so much as the necessary sacrifice of a consciousness working it out. I am never afraid to disagree. But then, I try to never take matters of disagreement personally. When I do, I try to own it and move forward.

I will never believe that all the Kumbaya business in the world can bring us a sense of community. That makes for false mortar. I believe community is better built in being civil, but forthright. I believe in Doing The Work.

And sometimes that means we will be heated. We will staunchly disagree. But we will, if we are wise, understand what brought us together in the first place. We have a commonality more significant than any of our differences. It is this that has laid the foundation for any of our community building efforts. It is this that made a place for us here.

[Admin]

I want to make it crystal clear that this space is not merely inclusive of male-identified people, but that we HONOR that path.

I have been watching this conversation evolve and want to interject something here.

It looks like there is some vocalizing of fear around being marginalized as a female-identified Butch. I get that. I understand that deep desire to be seen, to be honored, to be heard, to be not just visible in a space but to have a sturdy foundation. Female-identified Butches will ALWAYS have a foundation in Butch-Femme culture, an honored and valued one!

We need to remember that male-identified people and Trans men have BEEN in our shoes. They have walked these miles and the decision to transition does NOT erase years of lived history. It doesnt mean that they have some higher status in this community because they are now transitioned or male-identified, it just means they have a different experience. A valued and honored one!

The injection of testosterone or use of male pronouns doesnt cause a physiological change in the brain where knuckle-dragging sexism takes root. Most likely that behavior would already be rooted in the person doing it. Butches do it. Femmes do it. We ALL do it sometimes.

I think that we can certainly seek ways to be seen, ways to be comfortable. I think it is perfectly ok to say to a person, "Hey, can you please be mindful of how your presence here affects my own presence here"
And that goes in both directions! We ALL affect each other. Nobody here exists in a bubble - and who would want to?

This is a gentle reminder to all that this conversation is fucking important and that we might feel like throwing up our hands and giving up but that maybe our frustration is a call to stay the course.

We need to ALL be mindful to use language that is respectful and honoring of this space for which is was intended. This is YOUR home, so dont go putting up any ugly decorations.

Love to us all.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

...I'm not saying any of this makes me better than the next butch.

What's all this up in this joint, a meeting of the Joint Mis-alliance of Differently-Gendered COMMIES?

I'm not afraid to say it. I AM better than the next butch.