Are butches really a dying breed?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

I think a lot of younger folks think that butch-femme is very gender conformist and heteronormative. We do see some of that on this site. It used to be rampant on the other site. (I know there are more sites out there, but I can't keep up. I am old. I am referring to the dash site.)

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

Yes, but also, in my estimation, the bigger fear/risk is the alienation from the non b/f lesbian community.

[alexri]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

I see that and I agree with you. I also see it with people expecting that trans people aren't true trans if they won't have surgery or fully identify as the opposite gender, or when people question trans people who wind up having same-sex relationships after transitioning. It's frustrating when we want the rest of society not to judge us and then we judge among our own ranks.

[Jett]

I read this most recent exchange several days ago and it just feels itchy... how would an outside person is actually even begin discern this? That someone is really a butch but is identifying as something else because of expectations or peer pressure? I think my thing is, (because it wasn't explained) how and why are we assuming this person is a butch in the first place? Because of how they look? Their behaviors? Just because two things appear similar doesn't mean they are at all... but I think we all know this.

Ok, taking andro here because it's been put forth... I think andro as a personal ID is a complete and legit identity outside of butch and sometimes along with it but I'd say confidently unique from it in the majority of instances. It has some pretty specific features as a "rule" (dually or non-gendered) that aren't a "rule" in butch identity. I dunno, positing that any significant amount of people that identify as andro (or stud/tomboi/trans/etc. on and on) really aren't and are really butches in hiding and this phenomenon would be supposedly common enough to make a dent in the populous of the butch pool I think is a pretty damn big leap and seems slightly arrogant as well ("seems" I absolutely don't think it was intended that way). But what really is bothering me about the whole thing is I also believe it really appears to minimalize legitimicy of those all identities as separate- unique- important- valuble- equal and desired identities on their own and apart from butch (also perhaps taking away from butch also by kind of just throwing everything under the sun in the pot).

Do I think butches are a dying breed? No I don't and I don't think they ever will be. But I do think that a lot of people who have (or would have) identified with "butch" in the past did because it maybe seemed the only or closest option and those particular identities are now finding better ID's/terms (for them)... or even older reclaimed, revamped or renewed ones that more closely and clearly suit them in their own unique path. I'd assume if someone ID's in a certain way that that is what they are and that only a miniscule fraction would NOT identify with their true selves because of what they percieve others to think.

Is it personal to me? Yes and no... yes I identified as a butch for over two decades and I now identify as a tomboi (as in queer tomboi not straight ones as I personally think there's a big difference)... SOLELY because tomboi is for the most part much more specific to me, more specific in appearance, the sex the vast vast majority of tombois/y's personally associate with and most especially the behaviors, like and dislikes... and no it's not personal because really for all intents and purposes at the end of today when I've got my girl under my arm and a movie in the DVD player I could really give two shits about gender theory or what anyone else thinks of what I am... I just am.

[CharmingButch25]

I am very butch and very much alive!!

[Renj3]

I have most times where I feel I should be one way or the other. Now, I'm merely putting a opinion...based of speculation.

Social media is one of the greatest influences. Be it internet or television. For those who are looking to come out of the closet, they look to that as emulation to be more accepted. Usually the case is femme on femme because I hardly EVER see a butch on butch or butch-femme relationship on TV... maybe in the occasional porn or two but not national television.

Growing up, I always felt comfy in guy clothes and in even the mental thought of being LIKE a guy. I know I'm a woman but still, I love feeling masculine. I think I lost my original point.... Oh yeah, Butches themselves aren't a dying breed. I think that thinking outside the paradigm of what a butch is, what they should be, or what makes a person comfy is dying. ....Why can't I ever follow my own train of thought?? Did I answer that question at all??

[Glenn]

As long as there is life here on Mother Earth there will always be Butches. Why? Because of masculine and feminine energy. This physical world has always been dualistic by nature. What keeps the show going? Reincarnation and Evolution. In every culture throughout History there were Butches. In my case, I was reborn in a female body due to complex karmic reasons, but never felt feminine. I was a native american warrior who died in battle in my previous life. How do I know this? My mother told me when I learned to talk that I told her this. I wanted native american toys and weapons, always wanted to play war with boys, for years, wore a real native american costume on halloween, also drawn to museum exhibits, historical books, etc., even though I was born into an italian family. Later on, I became a collector.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

I think a lot of younger folks think that butch-femme is very gender conformist and heteronormative. We do see some of that on this site. It used to be rampant on the other site. (I know there are more sites out there, but I can't keep up. I am old. I am referring to the dash site.)

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

Not really. There are plenty of young butches and femmes. I would say that the typical advocates for this bullshit idea of butch and femme as "gender conformist and heteronormative" are gay men and certain lesbians. And they are typically academics teaching queer theory. I just think that younger butches and femmes aren't seeking out specific butch and femme communities as much as they used to anymore, but just relate as their identities to other growing and transforming communities around them. The only time I've heard that whole "gender conformist" spiel irl has been in queer theory classes led by white gay men or non-b/f lesbians. Some people just continue to want to make their own opinions reality for other people, but that doesn't mean that young queer folks are buying it. The number of young people still claiming femme and butch the queer community is still pretty high, and they aren't exactly words that have been thrown by the way side. People just interact with their own identities in relation to their own communities differently than in past generations. And especially as the queer/trans community continues to recognise its own diversity and self-determination as far as identity to a greater extent than it did in the past.

[LadyRieinAL]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

not so much are butches a dying breed but i'm quite sure OS butches are rare everywhere

I'm so embarassed to ask, because as long as I have been out, I should know - what is OS Butch? ---- Outstanding?

[LadyRieinAL]

eyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I think I just figured it out OS = old school?

I'm an old school femme, I think.....
I want someone to open my door
I want someone to pump my gas because they don't want my hands to smell like gas and it isn't offensive on their's.
I want someone who appreciates that I like my make-up and girly shoes and I care nothing about tennis shoes.
The other day, I was chatting with someone who I had met a month or so earlier, and she said her ex told her she wasn't butch enough - and when I asked what did her ex mean - she said, she wanted me to pump her gas, cut her grass, take her garbage out - and she said, I ain't your errand boy...
.so at that point, even though I am capable of doing these things, except for cutting the grass, I'll pay someone to do that, I came to the realization that we were going to be really good FRIENDS.
I've never known any different lifestyle, I've had three relationships, two butch and one ftm and the total of years together is longer than most of the people on here are old - 35 years - so in my mind, it never dawned on me that someone who identified as butch would look at doing these things for their girl would consider this to be a bad thing. But it woke me up to the realization of what is and that I shouldn't just assume. <heavy sigh>

[alexri]

Originally Posted by LadyRieinAL

eyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I think I just figured it out OS = old school?

I'm an old school femme, I think.....
I want someone to open my door

And as a butch, I totally respect all you want someone to do for you, and that's what I expect/want my roles/jobs to be. And I enjoy doing all that for a femme if it makes her happy. It's done out of love, respect and admiration, or as rituals of the relationship. I do it not because I *have* to but because I *want* to.

In discussions about this w/ other queer friends, some femmes said they didn't want all this because they didn't want to be seen as weaker/lesser, or stuck in 1950's female roles, where the wife just cooked and smiled and looked pretty. I tried to convey that none of these actions are done by a butch to make you feel lesser, not equal, or too weak to handle any of this. And many butches don't do it to carry on hetero roles. It's done as a sign of affection for one's lady. But I don't think some see it that way.

I have heard both extremes from women... that I am not butch enough... and on the other side, sadly from some lesbians, that they might as well just date a guy. I try to explain that we all have our own strengths and weaknesses and sometimes they blur along genderlines.

All the earlier comments about the impact of social media and television make a lot of sense. GLBT visibility is completely different now than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. When the L Word came out, there were so many Shane look-a-likes it was sad. And when Queer As Folk was out, it was all about the club scene for a lot of gay men. It was like straight teens and fashion magazines... "oh this is what I'm supposed to look like." Just MHO.

[Martina]

I live in the real world too, in a place where there is a large queer community, and, although I am old, I run into quite a few young folks. Just one example, I was at the Freight and Salvage in Berkeley and saw what looked to be a b-f couple. I asked if they ID'd as butch and femme, and they said "sometimes" and proceeded to explain that they were wary of the ID's for the reasons I discussed.

I haven't been to a queer theory class in decades.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Not really. There are plenty of young butches and femmes. I would say that the typical advocates for this bullshit idea of butch and femme as "gender conformist and heteronormative" are gay men and certain lesbians. And they are typically academics teaching queer theory. I just think that younger butches and femmes aren't seeking out specific butch and femme communities as much as they used to anymore, but just relate as their identities to other growing and transforming communities around them. The only time I've heard that whole "gender conformist" spiel irl has been in queer theory classes led by white gay men or non-b/f lesbians. Some people just continue to want to make their own opinions reality for other people, but that doesn't mean that young queer folks are buying it. The number of young people still claiming femme and butch the queer community is still pretty high, and they aren't exactly words that have been thrown by the way side. People just interact with their own identities in relation to their own communities differently than in past generations. And especially as the queer/trans community continues to recognise its own diversity and self-determination as far as identity to a greater extent than it did in the past.

[Beloved]

Originally Posted by alexri

In discussions about this w/ other queer friends, some femmes said they didn't want all this because they didn't want to be seen as weaker/lesser, or stuck in 1950's female roles, where the wife just cooked and smiled and looked pretty. I tried to convey that none of these actions are done by a butch to make you feel lesser, not equal, or too weak to handle any of this. And many butches don't do it to carry on hetero roles. It's done as a sign of affection for one's lady. But I don't think some see it that way.

This is a little off topic but the 1950's housewife thing just made me think of it. I have met men and butches who want a 1950's housewife kinda girl and who (butches/men) want to be the head of the house. I find it rather amusing because not only do they want a housewife but they also want their woman to work outside the home. That's NOT a 1950's housewife. That's a slave. They want the feminine person of the relationship to work double time and make all the sacrifices and then have little power in the relationship. No thank you...

[*Anya*]

I do not believe that butches are a "dying breed" (what a phrase!).

There have always been masculine women and there always will be. There always have been the transgendered. There will always be what the Native Americans call the "two spirited".

Any search engine can bring up images of butches from the time that photography was invented and photographers were able to take pictures!

How someone is born is different than whatever role either society or a cohort thrusts upon us.

We may even chose to have roles! (Some femmes may want to be a 1950's housewife!)

There will always be butches and femmes.

How we may chose to live our lives, is something else entirely.

[SleepyButch]

I would hope that we are not a dying breed. Maybe future generations will decide not to use the term Butch.. I don't know.

What I do know is that I would not want to be anything else then what I am right now. If I had a choice in my next life, I would come back as a Butch who loves femmes. I would not want it to be any other way.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Beloved

This is a little off topic but the 1950's housewife thing just made me think of it. I have met men and butches who want a 1950's housewife kinda girl and who (butches/men) want to be the head of the house. I find it rather amusing because not only do they want a housewife but they also want their woman to work outside the home. That's NOT a 1950's housewife. That's a slave. They want the feminine person of the relationship to work double time and make all the sacrifices and then have little power in the relationship. No thank you...

I think it helps, maybe, to not confuse id's with personal preferences and basic people stuff.

I have been with femmes who want me to be the head of the house, who wanted to be June Cleaver, who did not want to work outside the home, who were offended if I did a load of laundry or god forbid cooked myself lunch. Didnt work well for me. Does work for others.

People like and want different stuff. Id's do not.

As a female id, feminist butch, I like women who have goals for themselves, personally and professionally, who are looking for a partner to share the load, who strive to develop themselves in ways that help them to refine who they are.

The outside stuff may catch my eye but its the person inside who will hold my attention and gain my respect.

[Beloved]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I have been with femmes who want me to be the head of the house, who wanted to be June Cleaver, who did not want to work outside the home, who were offended if I did a load of laundry or god forbid cooked myself lunch. Didnt work well for me. Does work for others.

I don't think you are understanding my point. It's fine if you want a 1950's housewife that does NOT work outside the home. My complaint is wanting a 1950's housewife AND expect her to work outside the home. That is my complaint. I think it's unfair to try to have it both ways.

If it works for somebody, I guess that's alright. I would feel taken advantage of, personally.

[Blaze]

I personally don't think butches are a dying breed, now some say we may become extinct... We are just becoming a back burner house hold name because of all the other newer word terms usage that the younger generations are choosing to express their self being as.
I am a proud butch, proud of what the generation before me forged forward to give me freedoms to do, proud for being able to continue their hard grueling torment that society induced on them and us. I had someone ask me the other day, why is it that the word butch for a man more accepted then for a woman. She felt that butch woman should just be known as Dykes. That kind of made me feel sad, to think that the heterosexual community gives the credit to the men more, and are thinking that butch woman should just keep dyke as a prize possession trophy word.
This is why I am even more proud of being a Butch. It is still a cause worth standing for.

I have more to say, but will be back later!

[KayCee]

all I can say is : I hope not!

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Beloved

I don't think you are understanding my point. It's fine if you want a 1950's housewife that does NOT work outside the home. My complaint is wanting a 1950's housewife AND expect her to work outside the home. That is my complaint. I think it's unfair to try to have it both ways.

If it works for somebody, I guess that's alright. I would feel taken advantage of, personally.

I think I understood you well. You are not someone who would want to be in a relationship where you were expected to both June Cleaver AND work outside of the home. I may not have connected the dots the right way tho in my response.

The point was "people" not "ids" have certain preferences, wants, desires, ideals, expectations etc when it comes to relationships. Different stuff works for different people. Some stuff that works for others would drive me absolutely nuts. Some things I might want might make others feel unuseful or whatever.

Sometimes, I think we come to believe, in this case, that butches are a dying breed, cuz we cant find that person who compliments what we, personally, are looking for. We might find "the look" but we have trouble finding "the right person".

[rustedrims]

I have been reading in here for a while.
I dont think so much that we are a dying breed,I think it is a ID issue.As the young ones step up and come out there are different names/titles/ID's.Like it was mentioned a few times.We are still here but maybe not as visable.
I think Old School best describes me as i am reading.
I like to cut the grass and take out the garbage.I like to tear rooms apart and put them back together different than what they were.I would rather build shelves in the garage than buy them.I use to send my "x" to work in my truck and take her car to work to fill the gas tank up.I also payed.I kept her car clean and waxed,check the oil and even change it.I even go out in the garage and start her car to warm it up in my socks.I would even lay on her side of the bed to get it warm for her.This is the best one of all,i would get up first to sit on the toilet to get that warm for her to.I did it all and more.She took advantage of it.

I like all the make up and cutsie skirts and those killer heels.Pretty Femme hands should never be pumping gas.Should be a law about that.I will step up and do anything to keep those beautiful finger nails from chipping.I Love the Femmes and everything that goes with them.Like i said i guess that makes me OSButch.