Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

[BullDog]

I did find the other convo on the other channel. I do agree with the concerns raised and also the points of making sure everyone would be welcomed and comfortable while at the same time respecting women's space. Interesting how people were treated for raising genuine concerns. Hmmm

I don't think women's only or lesbian space is exclusionary unless there are some women or lesbians (for example transwomen) who are not welcome. I don't feel businesses set up to cater to gay men are exclusionary. I do not feel excluded when trans events for trans people are organized.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I did find the other convo on the other channel. I do agree with the concerns raised and also the points of making sure everyone would be welcomed and comfortable while at the same time respecting women's space. Interesting how people were treated for raising genuine concerns. Hmmm

I don't think women's only or lesbian space is exclusionary unless there are some women or lesbians (for example transwomen) who are not welcome. I don't feel businesses set up to cater to gay men are exclusionary. I do not feel excluded when trans events for trans people are organized.

Hey I am all for a Lesbian cruise Have no problem with it ...But not all lesbians are femme and it seemed to leave out the folks that are more masculine and it should not matter what you look like , if you ID as Lesbian then all Lesbian should be welcome ..

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Billy

Hey I am all for a Lesbian cruise Have no problem with it ...But not all lesbians are femme and it seemed to leave out the folks that are more masculine and it should not matter what you look like , if you ID as Lesbian then all Lesbian should be welcome ..

I am a lesbian butch with a masculine appearance. I don't think I would have a problem if I wanted to go. As to butches and appearance you really can't tell by looking at someone whether they are lesbian or not. Many butches are lesbian. Some are not.

[Corkey]

Tell that to Blaze who was left holding a ticket on the docks. Don't know how Blaze ID'd at the time, but it would appear that appearance was the case.

[weatherboi]

hi Bulldog!!!
hi folks!!!

appearance aside i think there is a difference in how a group of female id'd butches are gonna be perceived/received by olivia than a group of male id'd butches.

[Blaze]

Wow, I go to work and come back to see all of this...
Since Corkey said to ask me, I shall explain what happened. There was 22 of us that planned this for about a year. If you want the break down it was 9 Femmes, 10 Butches, 2 MTF and one FTM. Mind you, we all pretty much grew up together.
At that time, I was a Stone butch, and looked more like a surfer boy. Yes lesbian as I was venturing into my transitioning. I have no problem with whom or whom ever you may be. I just love my community and I am very protective of our community. Especially my FTM and MTF family. I relate most with because the understand what each other is going through while transitioning. I don't condemn any walk of life. That's the problem, we all start pointing finger and judging way before we actually acknowlede that we all bleed the same!
If some where making the assumtion that I was being disrespectful to the lesbian community than you took the football and ran your own game. I am a lesbian in transitioning of my own choice, I will always love my lesbian community because it is my roots. I just happen to love and respect my femme ladies, because I am Butch/trans.
Now that this is clear. My whole point was that we were disrespected. I don't appreciate that at all. Perhaps I shouldn't have put my story on this thread, BUT. I do have the right to state why I choose not to support or spend my hard own money on Olivia's cruise. If this all started the whole change, then I apologize to anyone I did offend. But in my eyes, I did not insult anyone. I just pointed out why I would never and I said NEVER support that company, ever.
I don't see anything in my post discriminating any gender or claimed group.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

hi Bulldog!!!
hi folks!!!

appearance aside i think there is a difference in how a group of female id'd butches are gonna be perceived/received by olivia than a group of male id'd butches.

How so? How would anyone know? Many of you just were at the BFP Reunion or have been in a group of butches where they were various identities. Are you telling me that male id'd butches look and act different than woman/female butches?

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

How so? How would anyone know? Many of you just were at the BFP Reunion or have been in a group of butches where they were various identities. Are you telling me that male id'd butches look and act different than woman/female butches?

Look different? If you read my post in its' entirety you would have noticed the first 2 words..."appearance aside"
Act different? No

What I am saying is focused on energy, natural instinct, and experience.
I am also talking about Olivia Cruise Lines only, which I stated in my post. It is a classist company geared towards lesbians of an above average household income!!! The employees have filters on from the get go!!! It is so very obvious to me how uneducated they are/were on dealing with trans issues when it came down to customer service. I was privy with my presence to both conversations Snow had with their customer service people and they made a mess of it. I have no desire to be in a female only space or a desire to try and make a female only space inclusive to guys like me.

IMO, if/when a group of male id'd butches come walking up onto their dock they may be, probably will be, perceived as frat guy like with the ability to be more rowdy/aggressive, or threatening even depending on said employees education about our community.

Bulldog...i hope this helps!!!

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am a lesbian butch with a masculine appearance. I don't think I would have a problem if I wanted to go. As to butches and appearance you really can't tell by looking at someone whether they are lesbian or not. Many butches are lesbian. Some are not.

I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

[Isadora]

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch.

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them.

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago.

*shrug*

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Isadora

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch.

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them.

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago.

*shrug*

It's always a pleasure to see you

If I may ask ..Was this cruise with the same cruise line or was it another cruise line ......And I am wondering if they changed policy's since then ...

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by Billy

It's always a pleasure to see you

If I may ask ..Was this cruise with the same cruise line or was it another cruise line ......And I am wondering if they changed policy's since then ...

*smiles Thank you!

Same cruise line Olivia...same people. We actually flew in with Judy Dlugacz. I met Judy years ago when Olivia was a recording company. I have no idea. Did they say you couldn't come? I must be missing something. LOL

[citybutch]

My wife and I have been on two Olivia Cruises in the past... this century! I have to say that this was our experience as well... I wore suits and ties at night and she wore dresses... We saw many many masculine presenting Butches and no one was harrassed at all in our experience. I think Olivia needs some serious PR upgrades if they want to look toward a solid future in providing cruises to our community... and keep up with a younger generation... where clearly there is a deeper and broader acceptance of our rainbow of gender expression...

That in mind, we are not really interested in Olivia in the future. I think if we went on a cruise again we would look at Sweet Cruises based on some things that were posted here as well as the fact that they do good things as they are cruising... It is not simply about consumption but about giving back... and I like that a lot... With that being said... we have a lot more on our travel agenda over cruises...

Originally Posted by Isadora

wow, I have been on one with Schon and a bunch of b/f people. Really? No one bothered us. No one called us names. No one wanted to check our Schon's hoo hoo for authentication. Schon is a pretty masculine butch.

I wore a dress, Schon wore a suit for dinners and special events. There were lots of other couples like us and lots that were not. We even won the Newlywed/Oldywed contest in front of 600 participants. They were more freaked out about us being Poly. Funny how people pull there g/f's closer like Imma gonna throw em down and run away with them.

Now men may find it different but there were lots of b/f people on our little trip almost 11 years ago.

*shrug*

[SuperFemme]

Aside from the whole issue of what Olivia does or does not do?
I have to admit I am not even a smidge interested in going on a cruise. (cruising in the queer sense is not off the list though).

Here is one of the reasons for my disdain:

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Billy

I bet the price of that cruise your not going to get on Because you are masculine looking ..They have already said you are not welcome ...I could be wrong and I have been all day ..lol But I think someone posted a letter from them ...

Billy, I have been a lesbian for 30 years and have very masculine butch friends as well. We have never been turned away from lesbian events.

[socialjustice_fsu]

I wanted to add that cruising had been my choice of vacation venues for several years...Alaska, Eastern and Western Carribean, Nova Scotia, Mexico, Bermuda. My partner at the time and I researched carefully the cruises we felt we would be most comfortable on, the cost, the ports of call, etc. We looked in depth at Olivia as we had been Robin Tyler supporters for years through her music promotions and such. Something kind of got lost in the mix over the past few years, though. We had always used the same travel agent that knew us well. My partner had some masculine traits that were certainly noticable to the general public. Our travel agent suggested we go with a mainstream cruiseline as Olivia had become more and more 'selective' of their potential patrons. Not only was our agent inferring issues with the butch-femme dynamic but other underpinnings were alive and well, too. I could not leave that alone, of course. After some investigative delving we learned that Olivia - and I would say perhaps even the more affluent attracting cruiselines (Seven Seas, Seabourne, Celebrity, Cunard) - researched their potential passengers as to income level, credit worthiness, asset assessments, the overall 'value' of the person. We felt we were being scrutinized to buy a multimillion dollar home. No way for those myriad of reasons could we support such business practices. We have cruised Norwegian Cruiselines and found them to be more than accomodating...however, at this point I would only opt to support any business/venue that keeps in mind two premises: 1) one that would welcome ALL of our community and, 2) my safety.

While cruising can be the ultimate vacation for many...time has made me think differently. The cruiselines we did use welcomed us, my elderly mother, my crotchety 84 year old Aunt, and my 94 year old well traveled Aunt - yes, that flew in a helicopter and landed on Mendenhall Glacier. I would not ever want to lose those memories.

Now our environment is more in peril. I look for vacation venues that do not damage the environment as well as a means to somehow support all of my community.

Now we have folks such as Medusa and Jack who have been visionaries and provided a welcoming, safe space for all of us. The cost was minimal compared to any cruise. No, I did not attend the Reunion but I have lived vicariously through the photos and the posts. I am not going to miss 2011, either.

I can only hope MountainStar has a safe and memory-filled cruise. I just have to say that we have a gift of community being practically given to us with the support of this site. We are welcomed to this TABLE...let's enjoy this banquet.[/COLOR]

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Billy, I have been a lesbian for 30 years and have very masculine butch friends as well. We have never been turned away from lesbian events.

This has nothing to do with how long you have been a Lesbian ...And we are not talking about ALL Lesbian events ....This is about 1 cruise line and their policy ! Like I said before I bet you the price of that cruise YOU because of your looks and their policy YOU are NOT getting on that ship ! I mean is this a ego thing here , because you have been a Lesbian for 30 years and have never been turned away from a Lesbian event , how dare they turn ME away ...Is there a special card you can flash ...And after everything you have read on this thread , I think you have missed the point ....

[Jess]

Maybe it's just me, but I see quite the few butch women in their videos. In keeping in mind that Olivia is "women's space" and was set up like many other women's spaces to provide safe space for women, I think they have been very successful in doing so.

I don't get being non-inclusive to transwomen. ( My definition is an MTF who lives life as a woman). I do however clearly get and support their right to exclude men. ( Trans or otherwise). I know this is not the intention of this thread to dissect the politics of gender othering, however since everyone else is tossing out their opinions, I felt safe in doing likewise. I don't have any problem with excluding men from women's space.

Don't know if the video will post, if not here is the link to their videos. There are a lot of butch women there, whether they embrace the term "butch" or not, they are clearly masculine presenting women, just not "male" presenting. To deny women only space is blatant sexism, in as much as supporting trans rights or lesbian rights, I can not do so at the expense of denying "women" space.

Hell, I would love to do the resort vacation ( not necessarily cruise) but until we can afford to do so and make arrangements for the boy to vacay with grandparents at the same time, it is not on our list.





http://www.olivia.com/Travel/default.aspx

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Billy

This has nothing to do with how long you have been a Lesbian ...And we are not talking about ALL Lesbian events ....This is about 1 cruise line and their policy ! Like I said before I bet you the price of that cruise YOU because of your looks and their policy YOU are NOT getting on that ship ! I mean is this a ego thing here , because you have been a Lesbian for 30 years and have never been turned away from a Lesbian event , how dare they turn ME away ...Is there a special card you can flash ...And after everything you have read on this thread , I think you have missed the point ....

No I haven't missed the point. As many here have reported many butches have gone on Olivia Cruises and not been turned away. I know about lesbian events because I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome.

[The_Lady_Snow]

The conception of this thread started out peaceful, mind you we all threw it off course but the conversation was flowing pretty smoothly till these posts that have * on them.

**

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFL

Yeah I would still book with them just because I don't follow a group of people of what they did or don't do.

**

Some people replied some did not but the convo kept going then again another post suggesting that a whole other convo was happening

**

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Mountain Star I will not be able to go on the Lesbian cruise this October for various reasons unfortunately. I would love to go in future. As a lesbian I enjoy lesbian events and gatherings.
Since this thread is about a lesbian gathering perhaps it could be moved to the "Lesbian Zone" so wimmin can discuss the cruise without wading through pages of lesbophobia.

**

Some folks replied some did not but the convo kept going smoothly and yet AGAIN :

***

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I certainly did not intend to participate in an incendiary manner "rally the troops" or shit-stir. I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I suggested that posting about a lesbian event in the lesbian zone might decrease the dozens of "oh hell no I'm not going- I'm not a lesbian" posts, which yes, feel phobic to me. I will PM you on the matter and hopefully make myself clearer. I'm not sure why my suggestion warrants such seemingly harsh moderation but I would like to understand so I can avoid being singled out in such a manner in future. Thank you for your patience.

**

Then we had more convo with some replies to this, a lil administration then I opened my mouth and asked this

**

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I would like to clarify that nowhere in my post did I come off with an intent to be anti lesbian.

Matter of fact lesbian was not even in my post.

So since you are making sweeping generalizations, I would like to say that I would not attend Olivia Cruises NOT because they cater to lesbians, but because I could not comfortably go with the person I am with, reason being..

They are not trans friendly.

**

More conversation happened then another member posted the proof that Olivia had said this:

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com

Then all that convo led to these views:

**

Originally Posted by Kobi

I can see all the forms of phobias, and inclusion/exclusion and probably a few isms as well.

What I cant seem to get passed is ....what do you mean I am stuck on a huge ship with thousands of people I dont know in the middle of nowhere for a week? Not even dealing with the poo issue....thanks Jack.

Maybe a harbor cruise or a day sailing trip hugging the coast? Anyone?

**

Which then turned into everyone was picking friends cause of who went where:

**

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFL

It's not that I have money to burn but I'm not going to make my choices of where I want to enjoy my vacation do to someone not being able to go on the Olivia Cruise If you have a problem or a situation with the cruise line then choose and pick another one and friendships shouldn't be based on what or where someone goes anyways! I get the impression that most of people are trying to "play" the you pick them we"ll not be friends with you, because of your choices" and that tells me that you never really were friends to begin with now was ya?

**


So *I* just had to ask wtf and I did

**

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This is kinda ridiculous, to assume that people are posting their opinions so that all their friends follow like sheeple and not go on a vacation if that is what they wanted to do.

If (insert name) decided tomorrow that she was going on and Olivia Cruise, I would be like

I would more than likely talk to her about it, and our friendship would change since she is supporting a place I do not for it's policies. I don't know to what degree it would change but I am pretty positive that I would not just kick her to the curb without having some kind of dialogue.


Once again I find it odd that you are reading some subliminal message that is saying if pick a side or you are out the club.

Really odd.




PS

Can someone PLEASE point out the phobia, inclusion/exclusion ism's comments?????? PLEASE

**


BTW the whole lesbian phobia was never pointed out, but then someone did make a not so nice comment and it got Moderated. So then Bully came in here not sure what was going on I EXPLAINED TWICE why the fall out.

Some people were hurt and still are because well I get some folks have been lesbians for a lot longer than some of us, now this is just me coming from *MY* space

when we say something like this

"I'm a lesbian and am qualified to say what my sense is regarding where I would or would not be welcome."

Really? How dismissing cause how does anyone know what the other posters identity was before they transitioned, does their history get erased and dismissed just because they no longer refer or feel this way or comfortable in that mattress tag?


The kick in the gut

"I love how non lesbians are some how the authority. "

Well I am a non lesbian, this is insulting and once again dismissing and therefore the blow out.

The person who posted this is right.

I am non lesbian, I identified with dyke when I was younger, for reasons that you don't really want to hear because if I do decide to share my experience I am 99.9% sure some people will view it as anti lesbian or lesbian phobic.

That's how the convo turned to shit, it was all fun and fluff in the beginning till people who were called liars, and be littled came in to vent cause of their hurt.

Even one member posted their experience with Olivia which was downright ugly.

But nooooooooooooo even then it looked like Blaze was getting lectured for not calling the BBB, and not checking the fine print, did not matter he was a lesbian at the young age of 22 and that when we are that age we are not as savvy as we are now in our more mature age, even then with Blaze sharing the story, it was like eh it was 8 year ago and well we really don't have the full story, cause well his words were not good enough?

Facts are Mountain Star wanted to see if anyone was going on the cruise, we ALL turned into a thread about how we feel about Olivia due to other things that happened elsewhere, from there well you can basically watch the dominoes fall.

*I* still feel each time trans folk or trans issues are discussed, it somehow turns into.... Everyone is dogging out the lesbians, so not true and frankly I for one am sick of those assumptions so like someone said

I don't know what planet ya'll are living on but I live on one where I don't diss or dismiss any gay, queer, trans, lesbian or anyone that falls in the gender spectrum. PERIOD.