Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[waxnrope]

Thank you for the thread, weatherboi, and for all the deeply considered replies.

In my enigmatic fashion, I consider myself primarily an OFOS stone butch Top... yet I continue the process of tapping into the place/s of desire, curiosity, and the muddied waters of my actuality. Through fantasy and exploration, I discover, for myself, how my positioning (LOL) bends, so to speak. I "run the show" ... except when my partner's imagination exceeds my own and seduces me with prospects of tantalizing pleasures. But only (at this time ...) IF done in a way that she remains "feminine." So, for now (cause who knows how I will think later!) I have managed to leave the door open for possibilities.

If I borrow from the French philosophical concept of the navette, or shuttle, Metaphorically, I have come to realize that this little vessel, known as my self, sometimes takes off without a specific landing point. It/I might have a destination in mind, but the current, the winds, the vegetation on another shore draws attention. This direction change might occur because my femme sub has a marvelous bit of creative imagery and imagination. And so I alter my course, to investigate - with her. Hopefully for both to enjoy. I will remain primarily a Top ... but there is much space to explore between the mountain and the sea ... I love the vastness of possibilities.

[adorable]

Thanks for starting this thread weatherboi. I started to post yesterday and stopped. I try to stay out of ID type threads due to the level of nastiness that normally results from them. Who we all are is complicated. There is nothing wrong with being just who you are and how you are - even if it makes sense only to you. What I have seen is that people are quick to say "YOU can't be that way because that doesn't work in MY head." lol. As if, how I am somehow makes them something else. Or the way that it works in my head means that I am trying to somehow negate how they feel even though I am talking about what works for ME. MY TRUTH. It doesn't belong to anyone else. I love it though when people say "No, you are wrong." Really? Why? What makes them right? Apparently, they think so - that makes it true.

Those things that are hot for us, our kinks and perversions are very personal and I think, they should be celebrated. I do now consider myself a submissive - that acknowledgement and understanding seemed to take FOREVER for me. I did consider it weak - although I wanted the exact same things as I do now, I called it something else before - anything but submissive. It was hard for me to understand the power exchange and the powerful stance of submitting. That I wasn't submitting to someone who was better then me somehow - that is where my head took it. (My ego hates that line of thinking.) I am a strong personality. I run things for a living. I had a million things that I thought meant that I was not a submissive or would make a horrible submissive. lol. I asked a ton of questions, I read a lot, I talked to other submissives and dom(me)s. Now I GET IT. Finally. And some people may still not consider me to be a submissive. What matters to me is that I do (and -->HE does. lol) I don't need the world to get it.

Submissive - the word - has the perception of weakness associated with it by society. Dominance is rewarded. Being on the bottom, we have been taught, doesn't seem quite so successful as being on the top of - well anything. What I wanted was to be submissive without the negative societal implications that I was somehow weaker for it.

I bottom ONLY to masculine male IDs and I top ONLY to feminine female IDs. It is very specific and about extremes for me. And it's not enough for them to have the right ID, they have to have the right look, attitude and level of disturbed-ness that works for me too. Now that may seem outwardly to be straightforward misogyny. It's not that I see male as more powerful and women as weaker in day to day life - but how I want to fuck and be fucked has very little with day to day life. It does have everything to do with perversion, my idea of hotness, a fucked up childhood and the twisted way that my mind works. Some people get off on the opposite, or something in between or riding a life size my little pony around the house. Somethings work and somethings just don't for each of us.

I think we can all agree though that having a life size my little pony is hot.

Society in general accepts my outward appearance more readily than others, in the same way that people just "get" (even though they have no idea about the REAL reason for why) that I want to be topped by a male ID. They don't question my desire for that in the same way they would you for wanting to be topped by a femme. I've heard people say a real butch doesn't_____ !! (Just fill in anything like a mad lib - just about every verb works.) Hearing that shit is like nails on a chalkboard for me. Like some people refer to their partner as "my old lady." Ugh. Welcome to 2010 folks....

There is so much more I'd like to say but now it would head off into the butch femme thing for me - which NEVER EVER works - so I will stop. Great thread!

[Chancie]

I am so lucky to be blessed with my boy, my beautiful handsome Pete.

[Toughy]

your welcome weatherboi

Let me explain what I mean by 'the bottom runs the fuck'. In the kink world we negotiate what is going to happen. Boundaries are set about what is and is not acceptable for the bottom/sub and the Top/Dom/Domme. The bottom sets her/hys/his boundaries and the Top is obliged to respect them. The bottom gets a safeword. That safeword can end the scene. The power to end the scene is in the hands of the bottom....the bottom runs the fuck in that sense. (Yes as a Top I have ended scenes because I thought the bottom was not capable because of the headsapce she/he was in.)

The above staterment is a generality. Yes, there are D/s M/s relationships that have negotiated no safe word. The key here is in the negotiation part. All the M/s D/s relationships I know of also have a set time to sit down and renegotiate the contract. Again power is in the hands of the bottom.

Once all that is done........well then the Top takes over and runs the scene/fuck.

Hope that makes sense and clarifies what I mean.

edited to add: I am mystified, sometimes, at how some folks just don't want to see the power inherent in being a bottom/sub.....

[weatherboi]

i will thank you in advance for your thoughts and time Toughy

Originally Posted by Toughy

your welcome weatherboi

Let me explain what I mean by 'the bottom runs the fuck'. In the kink world we negotiate what is going to happen. Boundaries are set about what is and is not acceptable for the bottom/sub and the Top/Dom/Domme. The bottom sets her/hys/his boundaries and the Top is obliged to respect them. The bottom gets a safeword. That safeword can end the scene. The power to end the scene is in the hands of the bottom....the bottom runs the fuck in that sense. (Yes as a Top I have ended scenes because I thought the bottom was not capable because of the headsapce she/he was in.)

i have a safe word Toughy...my Ms had me well prepared before we ever met to play. i do have boundaries, and some i have not even discovered yet so we are constantly renegotiating these terms...she is kind this way.

my safe word is merely a tool to for Us to explore Our boundaries...in our S/m dynamic i am just flesh for Her to use...if i cannot give my flesh to her she has the power to go find it elsewhere

The above staterment is a generality. Yes, there are D/s M/s relationships that have negotiated no safe word. The key here is in the negotiation part. All the M/s D/s relationships I know of also have a set time to sit down and renegotiate the contract. Again power is in the hands of the bottom.

Once all that is done........well then the Top takes over and runs the scene/fuck.

Hope that makes sense and clarifies what I mean.
it makes sense that your D/s M/s runs this way but my D/s M/s runs differently and my Ms decides that.

edited to add: I am mystified, sometimes, at how some folks just don't want to see the power inherent in being a bottom/sub.....
i embrace my power to make me better in my service not to give me power over my Ms or my dynamic...for me it goes against the entire exchange for me to think this way.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Toughy

edited to add: I am mystified, sometimes, at how some folks just don't want to see the power inherent in being a bottom/sub.....

I am mystified by these blinders myself..

For me..

Submission is powerful... strong.... awe inspiring... The trust in the eyes... The willingness/ablility to give up control to someone else.. To trust that they are going to take you where you need to go, give you what you crave...and in that submission they are allowing me to give them what I need to give...

Awe Inspiring...

[Martina]

There is one Femme Top and Her boi (butch) who i love to see play. It is sooo hot. i have seen her serve the Dominant as well. Always hot and respectful and playful. Very dignified except when the poor boy was screaming in fear and pain.

However, i have wondered whether i have some of this prejudice. i have reacted to a few Femme Dominant-butch/trans sub couples with some squick. So i gave it a lot of thought.

i LOVE seeing butch-butch play and D/s. Nothing hotter, so clearly seeing boys abject in their submission and bottom space is not the issue. i like seeing boys exposed and hungry and afraid and adoring their Tops. Very hot.

Plus, i myself serve Femme Tops. So i was mystified by my reaction.

i figured it out finally. Quite a few of the boys i had seen with Femme Dominants ran a lot of puppy energy with their Ma'ams. Puppy energy at best just flattens me. At worst it is a big squick. (This is MY problem. i also get freaked by seeing folks in DEEP babygirl space, so it's not all about gender. Plus girls can be puppies.)

But i have thought about this -- whether i was someone who shared this prejudice.

i think i do in some ways. i had an acquaintance who is trans. He did not have a job for a long while and was making his femme partner fairly miserable during this period. So part of my displeasure with him was how big of a jerk he was being to his partner. But i also experienced that deep sexist judgement about a man not making a living, not supporting himself and, in fact, being supported by a woman. i REALLY experienced that. i was shocked at myself. This relationship was not femme-lead. But i do mention it because it was that kind of "man-up" reaction that i had. i was like how can you take up so much space and be such a foul mess when you aren't even making any money? i was floored by that reaction in me. But i had it.

[weatherboi]

hi adorable-
thanks for putting forth such effort! great post!

Originally Posted by adorable

Thanks for starting this thread weatherboi. I started to post yesterday and stopped. I try to stay out of ID type threads due to the level of nastiness that normally results from them. Who we all are is complicated. There is nothing wrong with being just who you are and how you are - even if it makes sense only to you. What I have seen is that people are quick to say "YOU can't be that way because that doesn't work in MY head." lol. As if, how I am somehow makes them something else. Or the way that it works in my head means that I am trying to somehow negate how they feel even though I am talking about what works for ME. MY TRUTH. It doesn't belong to anyone else. I love it though when people say "No, you are wrong." Really? Why? What makes them right? Apparently, they think so - that makes it true.

i get this and see it in most aspects of my life being trans

Those things that are hot for us, our kinks and perversions are very personal and I think, they should be celebrated. I do now consider myself a submissive - that acknowledgement and understanding seemed to take FOREVER for me. I did consider it weak - although I wanted the exact same things as I do now, I called it something else before - anything but submissive. It was hard for me to understand the power exchange and the powerful stance of submitting. That I wasn't submitting to someone who was better then me somehow - that is where my head took it. (My ego hates that line of thinking.) I am a strong personality. I run things for a living. I had a million things that I thought meant that I was not a submissive or would make a horrible submissive. lol. I asked a ton of questions, I read a lot, I talked to other submissives and dom(me)s. Now I GET IT. Finally. And some people may still not consider me to be a submissive. What matters to me is that I do (and -->HE does. lol) I don't need the world to get it.

i could see where ego could get in the way of submitting...i know if my Ms sniffs out any cockiness or ego stuff that is getting in the way of my service she speaks to me about it

Submissive - the word - has the perception of weakness associated with it by society. Dominance is rewarded. Being on the bottom, we have been taught, doesn't seem quite so successful as being on the top of - well anything. What I wanted was to be submissive without the negative societal implications that I was somehow weaker for it.

I bottom ONLY to masculine male IDs and I top ONLY to feminine female IDs. It is very specific and about extremes for me. And it's not enough for them to have the right ID, they have to have the right look, attitude and level of disturbed-ness that works for me too. Now that may seem outwardly to be straightforward misogyny. It's not that I see male as more powerful and women as weaker in day to day life - but how I want to fuck and be fucked has very little with day to day life. It does have everything to do with perversion, my idea of hotness, a fucked up childhood and the twisted way that my mind works. Some people get off on the opposite, or something in between or riding a life size my little pony around the house. Somethings work and somethings just don't for each of us.
yeah i get it the whole raw dirty rough painful aspect of play/sex and that we all have our kink. i however cant view my Ms or any woman as weak in any aspect of my life, because this kink life i live touches me to some degree 24/7

I think we can all agree though that having a life size my little pony is hot.
how about hello kitty?

Society in general accepts my outward appearance more readily than others, in the same way that people just "get" (even though they have no idea about the REAL reason for why) that I want to be topped by a male ID. They don't question my desire for that in the same way they would you for wanting to be topped by a femme. I've heard people say a real butch doesn't_____ !! (Just fill in anything like a mad lib - just about every verb works.) Hearing that shit is like nails on a chalkboard for me. Like some people refer to their partner as "my old lady." Ugh. Welcome to 2010 folks....

There is so much more I'd like to say but now it would head off into the butch femme thing for me - which NEVER EVER works - so I will stop. Great thread!

maybe you should open a thread to discuss the topic you are halting on...it may be a good thing.

[weatherboi]

great post thanks!

Originally Posted by waxnrope

Thank you for the thread, weatherboi, and for all the deeply considered replies.
Thanks waxnrope for your valued input. I look forward to hearing more from you.

In my enigmatic fashion, I consider myself primarily an OFOS stone butch Top... yet I continue the process of tapping into the place/s of desire, curiosity, and the muddied waters of my actuality. Through fantasy and exploration, I discover, for myself, how my positioning (LOL) bends, so to speak.
I get it, no pun intended. Funny. For me it came down to total reality. I was looking to be owned, so before throwing myself into the waters I had to spend some time evaluating what was going to work for me. I am not privy to choosing positions.

I "run the show" ... except when my partner's imagination exceeds my own and seduces me with prospects of tantalizing pleasures. But only (at this time ...) IF done in a way that she remains "feminine." So, for now (cause who knows how I will think later!) I have managed to leave the door open for possibilities.

i am ok with not running the show. i know the show will be exactly what my Ms decides i need. now i am ok with my Ms and her masculine energy. it is not like she dresses like buck from the united states of tara or she touches me in some feminizing way...it is energy.

If I borrow from the French philosophical concept of the navette, or shuttle, Metaphorically, I have come to realize that this little vessel, known as my self, sometimes takes off without a specific landing point. It/I might have a destination in mind, but the current, the winds, the vegetation on another shore draws attention. This direction change might occur because my femme sub has a marvelous bit of creative imagery and imagination. And so I alter my course, to investigate - with her. Hopefully for both to enjoy. I will remain primarily a Top ... but there is much space to explore between the mountain and the sea ... I love the vastness of possibilities.

[Liam]

Perhaps you could clarify something for me, I'm confused about the derision you experience. Are the guilty parties primarily outside of the leather/bdsm community? Or have things changed? I had to serve as a bottom, before I could call myself a top, a practice which made sound sense to me, one of the many reasons being, to impress upon me, that a bottom is never less than.

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by Liam

Perhaps you could clarify something for me, I'm confused about the derision you experience. Are the guilty parties primarily outside of the leather/bdsm community? Or have things changed? I had to serve as a bottom, before I could call myself a top, a practice which made sound sense to me, one of the many reasons being, to impress upon me, that a bottom is never less than.

It has been my experience that TNG is more fluid in their expression of their leather/kink identities and how they flow back and forth is no less leather than those whose role is set. I think things have changed, as all things flow between new ideas/lives and "traditions". However, I think that I have heard way too many Tops/Doms who have never bottomed be less then respectful to the bottom dynamic in other butches. It has occurred to me that serving also is a lesson in appreciation, but it is also not a necessarily stepping stone to top. While some bois are switchy, some are not. I agree, Liam, I can almost always tell the different perspective when you have experienced serving.

Since I love age play with bois, it becomes even more edgy to be a bottom boi. Not only are women "less then sexual" as Momma, the boi is pushed and misunderstood in hys boi self. The Momma/boi dynamic is deeply intimate and even more marginalized from the larger D/s, Daddy/boi/girl community. There is nothing that brings out the Momma Bear in me then fucking with my boi's 12 year old self. Respect the bottom who consents with complete understanding to the life we agree upon (as Toughy says negotiation and communication are paramount) especially when playing psychologically with age dynamics and sexuality.

One of the other things that always bothers me is that a lot of the butch Tops I know would be horrified and angry if someone approached their femme bottom with propositions, nasty comments, corrections and derision. Yet, it has happened to everyone of my bois. It is sad that being a boi somehow you have to "butch it up" and that telling me about hys experience is "tattle-telling" not being transparent to hys Top. The double standard floors me...but as we continue to realize that misogyny has deep and tangled roots, we recognize and hopefully change our behavior to be most respectful of all relationships.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Weatherboi,

I did not know you were with Lady Snow. This is news to me. Nobody said so much as boo to me.

Andrew

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Isadora

It has been my experience that TNG is more fluid in their expression of their leather/kink identities and how they flow back and forth is no less leather than those whose role is set. I think things have changed, as all things flow between new ideas/lives and "traditions". However, I think that I have heard way too many Tops/Doms who have never bottomed be less then respectful to the bottom dynamic in other butches. It has occurred to me that serving also is a lesson in appreciation, but it is also not a necessarily stepping stone to top. While some bois are switchy, some are not. I agree, Liam, I can almost always tell the different perspective when you have experienced serving.

Since I love age play with bois, it becomes even more edgy to be a bottom boi. Not only are women "less then sexual" as Momma, the boi is pushed and misunderstood in hys boi self. The Momma/boi dynamic is deeply intimate and even more marginalized from the larger D/s, Daddy/boi/girl community. There is nothing that brings out the Momma Bear in me then fucking with my boi's 12 year old self. Respect the bottom who consents with complete understanding to the life we agree upon (as Toughy says negotiation and communication are paramount) especially when playing psychologically with age dynamics and sexuality.

One of the other things that always bothers me is that a lot of the butch Tops I know would be horrified and angry if someone approached their femme bottom with propositions, nasty comments, corrections and derision. Yet, it has happened to everyone of my bois. It is sad that being a boi somehow you have to "butch it up" and that telling me about hys experience is "tattle-telling" not being transparent to hys Top. The double standard floors me...but as we continue to realize that misogyny has deep and tangled roots, we recognize and hopefully change our behavior to be most respectful of all relationships.

Thank you for the kindness and courtesy of your reply, Isa. This also explains some interactions/observations I have had, that made me twitch.

[WingsOnFire]

Originally Posted by Isadora

It has been my experience that TNG is more fluid in their expression of their leather/kink identities and how they flow back and forth is no less leather than those whose role is set. I think things have changed, as all things flow between new ideas/lives and "traditions". However, I think that I have heard way too many Tops/Doms who have never bottomed be less then respectful to the bottom dynamic in other butches. It has occurred to me that serving also is a lesson in appreciation, but it is also not a necessarily stepping stone to top. While some bois are switchy, some are not. I agree, Liam, I can almost always tell the different perspective when you have experienced serving.

Since I love age play with bois, it becomes even more edgy to be a bottom boi. Not only are women "less then sexual" as Momma, the boi is pushed and misunderstood in hys boi self. The Momma/boi dynamic is deeply intimate and even more marginalized from the larger D/s, Daddy/boi/girl community. There is nothing that brings out the Momma Bear in me then fucking with my boi's 12 year old self. Respect the bottom who consents with complete understanding to the life we agree upon (as Toughy says negotiation and communication are paramount) especially when playing psychologically with age dynamics and sexuality.

This is very much true Isadora...Mommy/boy(i) is something I have seen far more taboo in any site I have been on. It is sad that people dont always respect the bottom for what they consent to in their relationship. The negotiation is between the bottom and their top. No one else has the right to judge that but unfortunately some people feel they do... This Momma Bear watches over and protects her boy fiercely. I love that he trusts me to let him be the little boy when he wants to be in that space and knows that I will keep him safe just as Daddy keeps my babygirl safe. I dont care what others think of me as Mommy... I care what my boy thinks of me as Mommy... If hes happy then I am happy..


One of the other things that always bothers me is that a lot of the butch Tops I know would be horrified and angry if someone approached their femme bottom with propositions, nasty comments, corrections and derision. Yet, it has happened to everyone of my bois. It is sad that being a boi somehow you have to "butch it up" and that telling me about hys experience is "tattle-telling" not being transparent to hys Top. The double standard floors me...but as we continue to realize that misogyny has deep and tangled roots, we recognize and hopefully change our behavior to be most respectful of all relationships.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with this statement... I have seen some pretty hard hurtful comments made about many types of relationships... It would be nice to see some of that attitude changed to allow everyone the right to be who "they" want to be.

I have really enjoyed reading your comments and insight into this subject. Thanks!

Becca

[weatherboi]

hi Liam-
the *derision* i experinece is not within my leather community. it is specific to the butch femme community.

with permission from my Ms i will share an experience with you. i was lucky enough to get to escort her to a butch femme event not to long ago. previous to arriving the Ms understood my excitement for this would be my first butch femme event. i was particularly excited about meeting specific people. upon arrival of the event i was introduced to a butch friend of hers that i genuinely looked forward to meeting. he was very dismissive and as the night went on he was even more disrespectful. when my Ms discussed it with me later we understood together it was an experience that stems from him seeing me as less. i mean do you really think he would have acted this way with a trans that was a Dom or Top?? so in essence not only did his behavior dis me but it dissed my Ms in a misogynistic way...why??
because i would bet he would never treat a butch friend and his girl that way. i felt more bad for my Ms honestly!!

Originally Posted by Liam

Perhaps you could clarify something for me, I'm confused about the derision you experience. Are the guilty parties primarily outside of the leather/bdsm community? Or have things changed? I had to serve as a bottom, before I could call myself a top, a practice which made sound sense to me, one of the many reasons being, to impress upon me, that a bottom is never less than.

[SuperFemme]

I wonder if it is really common for subs/bois to meet people that know their Dom/Top and suddenly this person you've never met is acting like you are there to service them? Like you are a community sub or something. I've seen it in action and I have been horrified every time. The only one with an excuse was the 17 year old who has NO clue about life, and she was quickly schooled.

But is that common? If so how do you deal with it?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wonder if it is really common for subs/bois to meet people that know their Dom/Top and suddenly this person you've never met is acting like you are there to service them? Like you are a community sub or something. I've seen it in action and I have been horrified every time. The only one with an excuse was the 17 year old who has NO clue about life, and she was quickly schooled.

But is that common? If so how do you deal with it?

It's not common. i have seen it happen too. But, no, i don't think it's common. People will hold back from interacting with others' subs in leather contexts, but you can show warmth and kindness and stay in leather protocols -- without any problem. The thing i like about leather is that other people's comfort comes before protocol. If someone is new or visiting, one is not supposed to make them feel uncomfortable if they make mistakes. i like that.