Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Sweet

I appreciate this conversation. Thank you.

Misogny has a lot to do with it.... but also, some individuals are afraid of change or afraid of things that are done differently than what they consider "the norm". They attempt to force their beliefs on us, or scorn us for not being "normal"... maybe, inside they want to explore your type of relationship style, but are afraid of also being perceived as "less than"...so they quietly dream about it, but don't act on it, instead they continue to scorn those that do act on their inner self.

You talk of our own personal evolution of our gender identity...
I agree that there is a stigma about your preferred type of bond. Mostly, (coming from a "me & I" place), I think stigmas come about because the person imposing the stigma has fears, inhibitions, lack of education, self esteem issues, issues with how they were raised to believe, or are too self absorbed to understand that their way is not the only or best way to live. Sometimes, the stigma around your type of bond is directed at both the sub and top because those imposing the stigma try to force their perceptions & beliefs...or interject their fears without personally knowing the couple in question. Sadly, the stigma becomes a personal attack like what you describe as a bullet. I admire your strength to dodge that bullet.


(Please note... this is hard for me to explain, but I will try anyway...I use the term submissive in a different definition than you are describing... to me, my submissive means I "give in" unwillingly to someone I really don't want to be with, or to do something with them that they know I don't like or is a boundary of mine, but they make me submit anyway because "it's their way or nothing". In the past, I've submitted to save my little cousin and sister from harm...or I've submitted to "get it over with and them off of me". To me there are two different ways of being submissive; what I describe here, which holds a negative feeling for me... and the submissive energy you and others enjoy, which is a very positive energy. )

I don't consider myself a Femme Top... or a Femme Bottom... After being single for many years, I haven't been with anyone that I could explore being Femme Top with. I don't know how I feel about that, if I were given the chance. I'm still evolving...but, I've recently accepted my evolution as a Femme Middle (my own term, after struggling with my ID and perceptions of what other's think I am/should be). I am very comfortable with being Femme Middle because it gives me a sense of security I've never had. I have heard the term Femme Switch...this does not fit me either and isn't what I mean by Femme Middle.

I am far from weak and grit my teeth when it is implied that I am weak or "less than" or that I should take "second fiddle" to my partner of choice because they perceive themselves - or someone else perceives them - to be "the leader" of our relationship. I do not like to be submissive because of YEARS of being made to submit in a very negative way. Although, I have often been made to feel less than. Especially when I first came out and ID'd as Femme Bottom (because I didn't know about other ID's or how to evolve with my own)?

Maybe being made to feel less than is one reason why I reject being the positive submissive? (has anyone else ever felt that way?) I get very "hot under the collar" when I am treated like I'm less than or given less respect because I may possibly be submissive. It's a very big trigger point for me. Maybe because I was forced to be submissive as a child and young adult? Lately though, I've become very content with "owing" what makes me Femme Middle - a very sassy Femme Middle - and I finally take pride in "coming into my own". Femme Middle means something very special to me. I'm not sure if I could be Femme Top... but do respect and admire those that are, as well as their partners. I have so little experience with a partner - after being single for the most part since 1996 - that it's hard for me to explore my gender and preferences, or to judge what I am comfortable with or not. I do have boundaries, mostly to do with PTSD. I have wondered if I am Stone Femme? But for now, Femme Middle fits me very well.

I am very happy for you that you have found an intimate bond that you can completely enjoy and give yourself to. By what I describe above, I don't want you to think I would EVER belittle you in any way. I'm just having trouble finding my words is all.

Maybe one day, I will find a partner that I will willingly and without inhibitions be submissive to? Your positive kind of submissive energy. Maybe they will enjoy my being Femme Middle and I can explore being submissive without fear of being judged or "put into a little box" of their description of Femme? Maybe, if we both feel safe doing so, they won't mind me exploring being Femme Top? I certainly enjoy "giving" - submitting to a partner is a form of giving, as well as giving them specific attentions. I'm not sure about being in a Femme Led Relationship...although I am very sassy and independent, however it plays out, it must be a two way energy and relationship and NO "giving in" just because I felt I had to. I would enjoy finding a partner that would enjoy my gender and energy in the way you so affectionately describe. I will always continue to reject stigmas, bullets and little gray boxes with my sassy Femme way. Someone else's fears do not need to hurt me or become my own.

Being placed in someone's little gray box with their forced views written all over the walls, will make me fight like a caged wild Tigress. I hate little gray boxes and strongly disagree with/push away those that force me into their box.

There are times when I feel Top... but don't act on it because I am very happy being Femme Middle.


PS... I am Femme... but many of my likes and hobbies are considered "too masculine" for me. Especially with me liking all things mechanical and working in the construction field as a Forman and Boss for many years. I get very pissed at being forced into the a box filled with misogyny about "femme's shouldn't do that", "femme's can't do that because they will complain about breaking nails", "that's not how I like my Femmes, they should be frilly and fru fru", etc etc... It's the kind of person that forces me into that misogynistic box that I would LOVE to go Femme Top on!! I am Femme, hear me ROAR!

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equates to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

[weatherboi]

Thank you Superfemme!!

I wasn't really sure how to word my response and you did it perfectly. When first discussing my dynamic with my cousin I found she was coming from a vanilla lack of knowledge perspective and assumed just this. I will never forget how terribly upset she got over it and how I spent the afternoon educating her on just the opposite of her perspective. Her blurred view created her much anguish. Now she spends lots of time asking questions about our dynamic. She loves loves loves my Ms!!!

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equate to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equates to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

So no one misinterprets my tone or awkward struggle to find the right words, this comes from a place of total respect and dignity for everyone here.

At first, I didn't understand your post... and I still may not? But, I wasn't trying to focus my discussion on the negative submissive ways or twist things about, or blur any lines. I was attempting to explain where I was coming from, and to offer my support for sub/bois that enjoy their positive dynamic and for their Ms. I over explained myself, I understand that now. I also was not attempting to perpetuate any false information or stigma. I was trying to voice a distaste for exactly that. Yes, I do believe it is dangerous to blur the line and I meant no disrespect at all. I do agree that being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult does not pertain to this conversation. I did mention that I was having trouble finding the right words... and did mention that I haven't had the opportunity to enjoy the positive submissiveness of any relationship or dynamic... I was trying to show respect for those that do enjoy and partake.

I attempted to focus the majority of my post on being made to feel "less than" and how that makes me (and others) reject exploring their desires to be sub. But apparently, I've stepped on toes or over stepped my bounds. I stand scalded and will gladly and with dignity learn from it.

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Thank you Superfemme!!

I wasn't really sure how to word my response and you did it perfectly. When first discussing my dynamic with my cousin I found she was coming from a vanilla lack of knowledge perspective and assumed just this. I will never forget how terribly upset she got over it and how I spent the afternoon educating her on just the opposite of her perspective. Her blurred view created her much anguish. Now she spends lots of time asking questions about our dynamic. She loves loves loves my Ms!!!

Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Sweet

So no one misinterprets my tone or awkward struggle to find the right words, this comes from a place of total respect and dignity for everyone here.

At first, I didn't understand your post... and I still may not? But, I wasn't trying to focus my discussion on the negative submissive ways or twist things about, or blur any lines. I was attempting to explain where I was coming from, and to offer my support for sub/bois that enjoy their positive dynamic and for their Ms. I over explained myself, I understand that now. I also was not attempting to perpetuate any false information or stigma. I was trying to voice a distaste for exactly that. Yes, I do believe it is dangerous to blur the line and I meant no disrespect at all. I do agree that being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult does not pertain to this conversation. I did mention that I was having trouble finding the right words... and did mention that I haven't had the opportunity to enjoy the positive submissiveness of any relationship or dynamic... I was trying to show respect for those that do enjoy and partake.

I attempted to focus the majority of my post on being made to feel "less than" and how that makes me (and others) reject exploring their desires to be sub. But apparently, I've stepped on toes or over stepped my bounds. I stand scalded and will gladly and with dignity learn from it.



Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

I know you were coming from a really good place Sweet, and your tone is great. I hope understand that nobody's toes were stepped on in you post, because I don't want you to think that.

I was pointing out how it read. No worries, ok?

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

This statement I made was specific to my experience with my cousin not pertaining to you. I don't know you so I can not say what you lack or don't. I should have made that clearer and I apologize. I usually separate my thoughts with a space. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I will say that this is not what I experience in "leather" elements but other elements. Make sense sweet?

[WingsOnFire]

I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

[Toughy]

One day hanging with a bunch of butch folk over a beer and a pool table the conversation turned to Femme Tops and butch bottoms. Some of those Butch Top folk are doing the posturing, chest bumping, knuckle dragging crap about no self respecting butch would get fucked or beat............<big ole snort>

Well....being who I am........I kinda smiled and said....

I bottom to a Femme Top and have been for a few years now.

<dead silence>

....you fill in the blanks....

One of the things I love most about the kink community (in general) lives in the idea that kink and sexuality have nothing to do with gender.


weatherboi...........please oh please tell anyone who insults you about being a bottom to come talk to me.............please................laughin...... .....please............

One of the things I know is this........and I was reminded this by an old friend who I saw in a cafe the other day.......

bottoms run the fuck

[weatherboi]

i thank You humbly Toughy!!

i have had 1 or 1000 knuckle dragging moments in my life...as for the kink community i have never felt more at home or accepted anywhere...everyones D/s and M/s is different...from my knees view point i know i don't run anything

Originally Posted by Toughy

One day hanging with a bunch of butch folk over a beer and a pool table the conversation turned to Femme Tops and butch bottoms. Some of those Butch Top folk are doing the posturing, chest bumping, knuckle dragging crap about no self respecting butch would get fucked or beat............<big ole snort>

Well....being who I am........I kinda smiled and said....

I bottom to a Femme Top and have been for a few years now.

<dead silence>

....you fill in the blanks....

One of the things I love most about the kink community (in general) lives in the idea that kink and sexuality have nothing to do with gender.


weatherboi...........please oh please tell anyone who insults you about being a bottom to come talk to me.............please................laughin...... .....please............

One of the things I know is this........and I was reminded this by an old friend who I saw in a cafe the other day.......

bottoms run the fuck

[weatherboi]

Hi Becca-
Thanks for taking the time to post about your relationship and experiences. Evolution is great between 2 people. Switching is cool. I have never been involved in a relationship where we switched. I think it would be hard for me to Top my Ms. Confusing for me. Now don't get me wrong I can reciprocate fucking her but I will never be topping her. Make sense? Has switching ever been a struggle in your D/g dynamic?

Originally Posted by MidnightBlueEyes

I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

[Isadora]

I have been served by four bois in my life. Their strength and butchness was never questioned...they all have both. The ridicule they put up with from femmes who were disappointed they were "really not tops", to butches into butches who can't figure out what they see in Me, to being hurt as the big bad butch top next to them goes into a fit of frenzied denial when mistaken for a bottom (like it was some kind of horrid possibility), to the butch top who tells them bottom butches are only good for a blow job, to being asked if hy wore frilly panties, too...all insulting, all hurtful and all unnecessary.

D once said to me, "Ma'am, I am the butch of your dreams and the bottom of your fantasies." Hy was both and wonderful.

[WingsOnFire]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi Becca-
Thanks for taking the time to post about your relationship and experiences. Evolution is great between 2 people. Switching is cool. I have never been involved in a relationship where we switched. I think it would be hard for me to Top my Ms. Confusing for me. Now don't get me wrong I can reciprocate fucking her but I will never be topping her. Make sense? Has switching ever been a struggle in your D/g dynamic?

I am a dominant woman in my everyday life.. I am a Scorpio. So I have a dominant personality which allows me to be a switch. In submitting I release the stresses that life throws my way. I can not even begin to express what it means to me to be a submissive. I also cant express what it means to me to be Mistress to my submissive boy. When you are given control over someones life in that way it is an honor that I do not take lightly...

I can totally understand you not being able to top your Ms.... actually I am not sure I can imagine anyone topping her... maybe just my perception??? But that does not make you weak in ANY WAY... to me a submissive has to be strong as steal... with the control we give up we must have given complete trust to our Dominant.. there is nothing weak about that...

As to your question first my babygirl side and submissive side of my dynamic are totally separate. I am predominantly a submissive now when I was 100% babygirl when our relationship began... So I was making sure to clarify the answer to your question as it really doesnt pertain to my babygirl side as Daddy is ALWAYS present when I am in babygirl mode if you want to call it that...

As far as switching within my D/s relationship it can sometimes be difficult to switch within your own relationship but it is very rarely an issue... Having a dominant side allows me to express that side of myself yet express my submissive side which is as much a part of me as breathing is. I have had people tell me that they can switch but not with their partner... I can and have topped another submissive but I can understand how some can not imagine switching with their Dominant... Or might have a Dominant who is not a switch which of course would require having another submissive to top.

My primary role is submissive, Daddy/Sir's primary role is Dominant. So for me I have not really had any issues with switching within our relationship. He is always very conscious of my emotional state and realizes if I am capable of being Dominant or not.

Hope that makes sense... I am half asleep.. We took a nap this afternoon which has me up WAYYY past my bedtime.

Becca

[DamonK]

Not to confuse anyone here...

As MBE said, I am a Switch. However, being called "Damon" instantly brings out the dominance, the Daddy, the Sir, the asshole -- whatever you want to call me when I'm "him".

Therefore, to make it easier, if I'm in the boy headspace, and don't need to be yanked out of boyspace, I'm called "J". Yes there's an entire name with it, but... well I have to have a FEW secrets, yanno.

So, speaking as J for now...

Is it difficult at times? Hell yes.
Does it get confusing at times? Hell yes.
Overall, do I love being able to be both? Hell yes.
Have I thought of giving it up -- the switching? Hell yes.
Would I give it up? Hell no.

Why is this?

This is not the correct thread, but as some may know, I have bipolar. My moods experience ups and downs that I can't control. The meds help me.

For me, being a switch is the "med" for my dominance. I get stuck in topspace and drop into an almost-depression when I come down from topspace. The submission allows me to balance.

I can't dominate all the time. I can't submit all the time.

Do people look at us like we're nuts? Yeah fairly regularly.

Do the same rules apply for me? Yes. If, as a boy, I do something wrong, I get punished. I have assignments. I have things I'm supposed to do. I do my best to get everything done.

How do we keep the distinctions separate? Very, very carefully. I'm supposed to journal regularly in order to check in. I switch from Sir to boy for approximately an hour every couple of days to check in. If there is something planned that is a special treat that I would enjoy as a boy, I switch. For example, a trip to the zoo. Gotta see those tigers. Gotta GET one of those tigers but I keep getting told no.

Being a Switch is a compromise. I suppose you could think of it as having 2 relationships. We don't have any real "set" times that I'm dominant and she's submissive, or vice versa.

It depends on the day, the situation, and our surroundings.

J

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

. Now don't get me wrong I can reciprocate fucking her but I will never be topping her. Make sense? Has switching ever been a struggle in your D/g dynamic?

Do me, this way NOW! lol- yes I understand. You exist to please her at any capacity. Perfect sense.

[sharkchomp]

Weatherboi

There's alot of judgemental people in the world. It's just plain ignorance and perhaps laziness too. Not to mention a lot of assumptions. The truth is, perception isn't always reality.

The perception is that bottom/sub boy = weak but the reality is bottom/sub boy, girl, femme, woman, man, butch, etc etc = a very strong person. There are people who just can't get past their perceptions and nothing anyone says, even with the most eloquent explanation, will never change that.

When someone says that you are weak what they are really saying is that they are not (even if they never verbally say that they are not weak, that is silently implied. This line of thinking is judgemental and seperatist. It puts you in one corner and them [supposedly] on their shining pedestal.

Who knows exactly why they don't get it or don't accept the depth of strength it takes to submit or bottom to another, regardless of gender. The truth is that line of thinking is their perception. I suggest the next time someone wants to put you in said corner, you merely smile. And in that smile, decide if they are someone worth your time and effort to educate.

And remember what the truth is when you hear this line of ignorance - that their ignorance is no true reflection of you. You are no less of a person, you are not a weak sub/bottom. Hold your head up high, with dignity and class for your journey has been unique to yourself.

My best
~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlueEyes

I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

I think this is so cool and so sexually/spiritually evolved. Understanding the aspects of yourself, defining them, giving them complete identities and compartments within yourself. Then finding one who loves you, trust, etc that supports allowing that "person" to emerge, play/explore and realize its just one aspect of you.

I think for me I need one who is naturally submissive most of the time, however I am also ok with hym/her developing other aspects when the need arrives.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Weatherboi,

First of all this is a great thread! Good for you. You are brave for posting this. My hat is off to you.

Secondly, do not let anyone belittle you at all. Sheesh.

If they do, you just say it to me, and I will straighten them right out. Another jackass as I see it. You hold your head high.

Lastly, whomever is your partner/spouse go have fun! Go live life! It is so short. So have fun no matter what!

[WingsOnFire]

Originally Posted by Sachita

I think this is so cool and so sexually/spiritually evolved. Understanding the aspects of yourself, defining them, giving them complete identities and compartments within yourself. Then finding one who loves you, trust, etc that supports allowing that "person" to emerge, play/explore and realize its just one aspect of you.

I think for me I need one who is naturally submissive most of the time, however I am also ok with hym/her developing other aspects when the need arrives.

{{{{Sachita}}}} Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, your emotions, your desires. You definitely do not need to settle for less than what you need and desire. It will not make you happy.

It is so interesting that in our relationship I fit the role of the submissive you describe... yet I feel COMPLETELY in control when I am Mistress. It is wonderful that you are able and willing to allow your submissive to develop other aspects of themselves should they desire to do so... That is exactly how my Daddy became my Daddy and now my Sir...

To suppress a persons needs and desires to mold to your own needs and desires is to stifle that persons emotional growth. I know first hand the beauty of allowing a person to be exactly who they are. I am glad you have stood up for yourself and not settled for less than who you are.

Becca

[Massive]

Originally Posted by ravfem

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas.

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

I've been thinking about this tonight, and yes, rav is My little one and babygirl, so it's partly, but not all of the reason I chose to reply to those two posts at this point, but in My experiences over the years, I too have seen the denigration of femme slaves/subs/bottoms as well as trans/butch Tops And Femme/Female Tops as often as I've seen the dismissiveness towards myself as a butch-bottom and other trans/butch-bottoms/subs. (repeating Myself again I know, but I think this does need to be repeated)
Yes femme slaves/subs/bottoms are more widely accepted as are their trans/butch Tops/Daddys than Femme Tops and their butch-bottoms both in the Leather and butch-femme community.
For Me personally I feel that this does stem from a lack of respect for others relationships and also a simple lack of understanding of the dynamic, I still remember to this day being out with My original Master and having a butch I had known for years talking down to Me when hy realised that I was Her submissive, it made Me cringe because I had believed I had had hys respect and that he had also had respect for Her. Her response was to strip this butch right down, verbally and very loudly, telling hym She thought hys views and concept of My place in Her life as being 'less than' hys sub-femme as ridiculous as hys sub and myself had the same level of 'power' in our relationships, needless to say, She never spoke to hym again, and neither have I, even after I no longer served Her as a sub/bottom. Then again, after My service to Her had ended, and I was Top/Dom to a femme-sub, this same butches small clique of friends was extremely dismissive and snide to Me and My sub ... so what I'm basically trying to say here is I've seen this happen from both sides, maybe My being switch means I will always see this more? I'm not sure, maybe I'll see both more and less now I have a babygirl/sub who I care for deeply and I am her Syr and Daddy?
I'm not sure what's down the road in this regard, all I can say, and say with My hand on My heart, is if I see this at all in the Leather and butch-femme communities, I will come down on them like all hell has broken loose and confront whoever it may be with the simple fact that they, regardless of who they are or how long they've been in either community, have no goddamn right to judge Me, My babygirl, or anyone else, be they trans/butch-bottom/sub, femme/slave/sub, Femme/Female Top or any other kind of dynamic that they dismiss as being 'wrong' because they deem it so as they are too ignorant or narrow-minded to just accept the dynamic for what it is, a loving, sharing, caring bond for someone who chooses to submit themselves, completely and utterly, to the Dominance of another.
I hope I haven't rambled too much and have been as clear as I can about My views here, it's after midnight and My brain has a tendency to go AWOL sometimes at this time of day.
Thank you again for starting this thread weatherboi. I have nothing but love and respect for both you and your Ms.
(I owe you LOTS more cadburys mini eggs I believe Lady S because your boi here's not only a brave soul for bringing this topic to light, he is also, from what I've read, very good at what he does)

Just another thing that occurred to Me, our Leather community is based largely on respect, how can others expect to receive respect themselves when they choose to disrespect anothers dynamic???

[Toughy]

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Toughy]

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.

I wanted to comment on this. First...........don't tell me to shut the fuck up because I live in the butch/femme world and I do D/s M/s differently than you do. I know exactly what My dynamic is..........and frankly I don't give a shit what your dynamic looks like. It's yours.

I live the dynamic for however long I want to live and if I only live it 12/6 it makes My dynamic no less valid than your dynamic.

This is a discussion about butch bottom, femme Top and kink and as such has no place for such derisive comments directed toward another viewpoint. A viewpoint that made no negative comments about other dynamics. Fact is we agree on most of those dynamics.

There are less derisive ways to talk about keyboard Tops/Dom(mes)/Masters. More constructive ways to talk about how us kink folk move forward in the internet age.