Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[weatherboi]

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

[Linus]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

[weatherboi]

no doubt about that Linus but we are discussing the butch side of it...not the ex side of it. as far as your opinion about that i am implying that women are owned that is not where i am coming from and i am sorry you choose to view it that way. sooo thanks for the patience and understanding that i asked for.

Originally Posted by Linus

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

no doubt about that Linus but we are discussing the butch side of it...not the ex side of it. as far as your opinion about that i am implying that women are owned that is not where i am coming from and i am sorry you choose to view it that way. sooo thanks for the patience and understanding that i asked for.

But that is your personal view and there is nothing wrong with that. I simply stated my view in relation to what you posted and how it felt personally (this is why I stated it from my point of view and indicated the "personally" parts). I apologize for not being clearer on what I was trying to express.

Part of the support for each other is to recognize the differences as well as the similarities. Our world (and I'm referring to this in a wider general sense) is all about extremes of support or contrary. Society seems more intent on accepting extremes rather than recognizing the middle ground or middle way. Just because I do not agree with your point of view doesn't mean I do not respect you or your understanding.

I went through the "my g/f was stolen by.." point not too long ago (about 4 years now). I look back on it as a learning experience. It was not the butch's fault nor the g/f fault. It was reflective of the time and what was going on. It cost me a potential friendship with both because of my internal view of "ownership" and "how dare he!" thoughts.

To me -- and I'll emphasize that these are MY thoughts, MY views and are only to be view as that of the Linus -- the ethic of "no butch/transman/whatever should steal another's femme/girl/whatever" creates boundary lines and animosity in itself. Rather I would prefer to create deep friendships with those transmen/butches/whatever that would negate their desire to cause distrust.

Will it never happen again? Eh. Who knows? Anything is certainly possible. But for me personally, I find it creates lines where there shouldn't be any.

[Corkey]

Personally, I tend to keep to myself, if asked I'll be honest without giving the details. It is after all none of my business. What goes on between two consenting adults is none o' mine.
Pronouns are a given I'll respect yours if you respect mine.
Being an adult and taking responsibility for myself is all I can do.

[Dylan]

You know, when I'm having a conversation in real time...where I make most of my friends...I don't tend to pick apart the supposed underlying meanings of everything/sentence/word they use.

I think VERY often times here, conversations get mired in down in 'semantics wars'

How does this apply to this thread? Linus, I don't think there is anyone here who thinks weatherboi thinks of women as chattel. If for no other reason (besides I've never seen him say anything off color) than Snow would kick his ass.

Honestly, I think these gender wars start over stuff like this, and these things RARELY happen (to me anyways) in real time. Had I heard that sentence in real time, by someone I'm familiar with on the same level as weatherboi, I would probably concentrate on the meat of the entirety of the whole statement than a picking apart of semantics


Just Trying To 'Bond',
Dylan

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by Linus

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

I agree with your first paragraph, Linus. However, I would argue, in the case of the second paragraph, that some femmes feel the same way about other femmes who steal their "guy", their butch, etc. And the same goes for some heteros as well. So, is chattel (you spelled it correctly) then, in your mind, gendered as you state here?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.
2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

[weatherboi]

yes!!! i hold this same rule for myself.

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!

Right on. Same here, except for one, I won't get into details. I know what you mean though. It's like a new chapter for me when the relationship is over, especially if it was ltr.

[weatherboi]

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

Nope I see it all the time with another group of friends. This one is with that ones ex and this one is with that one ex and this one is with this ones mom. It gets ridiculous.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

Nope I see it all the time with another group of friends. This one is with that ones ex and this one is with that one ex and this one is with this ones mom. It gets ridiculous.

Right, to me that is "incestuous" (for lack of a better term). I have been fortunate that my group of friends (well, I have more than one "pocket" of friends, I guess I should say), don't operate in this way. It would be uncomfortable for me to be with a whole group of people who have moved from one person to the next in a group (talking monogamous relationships here).

However, it happens. I think that part of it (at least, "back in the day", when I saw it more), relates to the fact that there is a limited "supply" of homosexual females/queers (in comparison to heterosexuals, for example).

[Kosmo]

I don't know any transmen or other butches in real time. I sometimes feel like a phantom moving through the world. I can appear to be indecisive on certain subjects, but that's because I have a strong sense of seeing both sides of an issue and I greatly respect others opinions and their views. Not to say I don't have strong opinions, but real life interaction would be so beneficial at times.

I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there.

I don't post a lot because life keeps me busy and I do have other interests, but this is a thread I will follow.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

I would say all of the above. When I was younger and didn't have a strong sense of self I have been that guy. I used to participate in what I called "butch contests", trying to get girls attention. I recognized it and still participated in it. Not anymore though. I would rather support my brother than compete. That also includes letting him know when he's being an asshat.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I would say all of the above. When I was younger and didn't have a strong sense of self I have been that guy. I used to participate in what I called "butch contests", trying to get girls attention. I recognized it and still participated in it. Not anymore though. I would rather support my brother than compete. That also includes letting him know when he's being an asshat.

Yes, I agree about the 'butch contests'. In the club/bar environment for me.

My sense of self took years to develop and I'm still honing it. Now I am comfortable in who I am. Like the proverbial pair of favorite jeans, t-shirt or sneakers. I've also allowed myself to be more fluid in how I identify regarding male/female. I'm finding my center so to speak.

I no longer feel that false need to prove some sort of degree of being butch.

I think supporting each other is important. And being honest, even more so.

[DapperButch]

[QUOTE=Kosmo;129882]
....I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there....

QUOTE]

You know, I honestly have to say that until this site I really didn't notice the infighting. And I was on the other site most often daily, for years. I don't know what the hell I was doing over there, but I just didn't notice. Perhaps I moved off of those threads when the craziness started, but I also think that back then I never noticed people, I just noticed posts, if that makes any sense. I didn't have an investment in the same way b/c I never really posted, or connected with others.

I didn't watch the relationships between others at all, so I wouldn't have tracked how things shook out between groups of people. I think I was just so wrapped up in reading about gender, I just moved along. So, maybe that is why I didn't notice.

In terms of this site, I have obviously seen it. However, I haven't noticed any real communication/relating problems between trans people and butches...more so within butch groupings.

I would very much like to read others' thoughts on this, BUT, not at the expense of us coming together in the way that we are right now.

ETA: So, unless our talking about what happened in the past is set up as a way to move forward, I would be hesitant for us to have that discussion, I guess I am saying.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=DapperButch;129926


Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there....

QUOTE]



Glad you threw it out here!

I think you might have something here with being guarded and self-protective. I just don't see either butches or trans/ig (and all the various identities) having a great time within society a lot of the time when we all just want to be who we are. And in our community, there just seems to be an awful lot of stereotyping on top of the outside world.

I think it is hard to feel left out when there just doesn't seem to be much room for yourself anywhere, so, when it feels shitty here, it feels really bad!

I have thought about the posturing stuff and competition over femmes quite a bit. I don't know if this is really true, but I wonder how much all of us internalize what femmes project as being attractive in terms of who we all are. Hell, we have all read posts talking about the super-butch, etc. by some (not all) femmes. But, I sure see other posts in support of a butch like me, too.

There are femmes that will only date Transmen and there are those that will only date butches. I try not to question either even though I have had some weird things happen around dating a couple of femmes that wanted me to transition. I honestly believe that everyone is just attracted to what they are attracted to. Then, again, I know femmes that have said they didn't ever think they would be with a transguy, but are. It seems to me that it is the person they fell in love with and the gender stuff just doesn't matter.

Hummm... you know, one of my old time FtM friends once did say to me that he sometimes felt that women (he would use women, not femme as he has no identification with the B-F dynamic) just wanted to find out about a Transguy out of shear curiosity! This made him pretty suspicious and guarded. I thought this sucked because he isn't a freaking experiment!

Ut, Oh... maybe I digressed....

Anyway, Dapper, I think there is a whole big pile of things that both butches and transmen could be guarded about which then can just lead to defensiveness for self-protection. I wish this wasn't true because it is smacking us all around, really getting in the way of our friendships and working together for civil rights (if that is something you want to do).