Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Bit]

Originally Posted by evolveme

..... It would not work for me whatsoever if by having sex with a straight leaning male-identified fella, a straight heterosexual transman, or a straight bio male that any of these folks decide I were "straightened out" by the act of sex with them.

.......See, if it's an act of taking back power for us to say that anyone who fucks me is queered by me, then I feel that power was artificial in the first place because it cannot work both ways. If it only works for me, and not him, then it's a lesser power. He'd think of it as trite, possibly.

I don't want a trite power. I want a whole one.

Julie, these are my first thoughts and I'm not sure I answered everything you said in this post.... heck, this might even be a tangent, but it's what came to me.

Femme is at the bedrock for me. It's what kind of energy flows through this body to express this soul. It's NOT my sexuality--it's my gender.

Queer is my sexuality as well as my community. So yes, if I have sex with another female-bodied person, the very act of two females having sex together is Queer and it doesn't matter what the other person claims, Straight, Bisexual, Lesbian---if they're sleeping with ME, a Queer Femme (dating, or in a relationship--not talking about the merely curious straight woman who dabbles and is gone), then they're Queer in some way. If they weren't before, well guess what, they are now.... just as I was when I started sleeping with my first partner, even though I insisted LOUDLY I was still straight.

NOT, I say to that long-ago girly. NOT. *wry smile*

I'm not creating this Queerness in another person, yanno? It's already there or they wouldn't be having sex with me, just as it was already there in me or I wouldn't have been so wildly in lust with my ex. BUT what I responded to in June's post was the community reaction to the idea that a Femme might--or even could--own the power of sexuality enough to Queer someone. That's the Butch's province according to the unthinking assumptions prevalent in our society; Butches get to claim the toaster ovens for converting/Queering other females, because Butches are most like men and sexuality belongs to men. According to this unconscious idea, Femmes have no right to claim such things--and June ran smack up against that wall.

It was that unthinking masculine/male-centrism in the community that I was responding to.

Does that explain my point better?

[Bit]

It's all good until I read one of your posts backwards, June. Just ask Blush.

[Gemme]

People suspect me all of the time, in regards to being viewed as a threat because I am/was single. *shrug* I think that I have a light-hearted and flirtatious energy about me (most days). I guess some people see that energy as blood-sucking or nest-robbing or whatever kind of energy would seep into their happy little homes and turn things upside down.

I have never overstepped my personal boundaries with someone else's butch. Of course, that doesn't mean I haven't overstepped THEIR personal boundaries. But the truth is, if something like that were to happen, you can't steal another away from someone. They walk, skip or run away on their own. I'd guess it's just pure meanness, fear and insecurity eating away at their trembling little hearts that causes them to feel the need to spew their venom.

I might or might not feel a bit touchy about this topic.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Gemme

People suspect me all of the time, in regards to being viewed as a threat because I am/was single. *shrug* I think that I have a light-hearted and flirtatious energy about me (most days). I guess some people see that energy as blood-sucking or nest-robbing or whatever kind of energy would seep into their happy little homes and turn things upside down.

I have never overstepped my personal boundaries with someone else's butch. Of course, that doesn't mean I haven't overstepped THEIR personal boundaries. But the truth is, if something like that were to happen, you can't steal another away from someone. They walk, skip or run away on their own. I'd guess it's just pure meanness, fear and insecurity eating away at their trembling little hearts that causes them to feel the need to spew their venom.

I might or might not feel a bit touchy about this topic.

My sweets, happy homes don't spend time worrying about who their honey is going to be tempted by.

You. Me. Cal. Naked Twister any time!

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

My sweets, happy homes don't spend time worrying about who their honey is going to be tempted by.

You. Me. Cal. Naked Twister any time!

Sorry, I forgot to post it in the sarcasm font.

Really?!?

I am SO up for that if you mean naked as in "wear anything you want as long as it slides well in jello".

<--- not evolved enough to not worry about ass dimples

[blush]

Originally Posted by June

I know, Blush. And that's the way it should be. But have you ever had someone shove you out of the way to open the door? Or be surly because you did it yourself? I have.

Hmmmmm. I love the ways we take care of each other, as long as it is not insinuated on me. And I never assume, either. Although I will admit to being a brat sometimes and standing next to a closed door with an annoyed look on my face, but again, with my partner, and I am having fun with her. I like how she "Jumps to it"

Yeah, we've all had those experiences, but that doesn't make me throw the baby out with the bathwater. If anyone was ever surly with me, that would be the last time they were allowed to open a door for me, yanno?

[evolveme]

In my house, I have a policy called Straight Up. It is essentially our golden rule. It’s that important. You show the utmost respect by being straight up, and if someone asks you, “Straight up, answer me this…” then you must, absolutely must, honor it with the whole truth. To defy it would be as bad as a physical slap in the face. What I need more than to have my feelings assuaged is to be forthright and to have forthrightness in return. It’s how I continuously learn from all of you, and from my family. It’s what I have to give in return. Not roses and hearts and a virtual tea setting but your truths for my truth.

So here (in this thread), I’ve struggled because although I want all of you to feel my genuine and deep gratitude, my love for you as people I know to be intelligent and wise and just fucking beautiful, I also worry that I am, as per usual, going to come across as overly aggressive in my positions on issues. I worry if being seen as hard or insistent will mean that my voice isn’t heard or that my words are dismissed, or that I am dismissed because of my words. I can’t know any of that, but I’ve grappled enough hours with myself to know that speaking my truth outweighs that worry. I’ve gotta come straight up or not at all. I owe it to all of you, and I owe it to myself.

So, here we go:

Originally Posted by Bit

Well, I suppose the context might make a difference on that one, come to think of it.... if I said that to a Transman, I don't think it would necessarily sit well, cuz yanno, Man + Femme does not equal Queer unless the Transman himself already identifies as Queer. But anyone else I might sleep with? Hell YES it would make them Queer to sleep with me...

Although I understand why you draw a distinction for transmen in this (because to queer a transman without consent might be invalidating and erasing and thereby a transphobic act), it’s still problematic for me because to set him aside as a ‘special class’ from everyone else is to say:
*I hold you with kid gloves because you really aren’t like everyone else*.
*Your self-determined heterosexuality is more special/different than a cis-sexed male’s and so I’m going to protect you.*

I think this is a real slippery slope, and quite possibly a furtherance of the kind of invalidation they too often face. Does that make sense?

And because, as I said earlier, I don’t want it done to me, I will not do it to ("queer by fucking") anyone else. Not a straight cis-sexed man, not a heterosexual transman, no one. I think doing so has the power only to erase and invalidate someone else’s identity and we’ve all fought too long and too damn hard for the right to claim ourselves than to be guilty of attempting to dismantle anyone else’s identity. No, a straight guy cannot “straighten” me out. The idea is laughable, but I cannot queer him. It’s an empty power. It fails to satisfy my desire for egalitarian gender relations.

No matter how you slice that kind of power, it cannot come to equal parts.

Originally Posted by June

It is about Personal Power, yes. And to me (posting back to evolveme here as well) as a Queer Femme who makes mutually beneficial/agreed upon decisions about who she fucks, my Personal Power is not up for negotiation. No, I will not identify as straight to validate you. No, I will not identify as straight to help you pass. I am not straight, and I am not pretending to be so. Ever.

I absolutely understand this, and I see how the strong need to be heard around it arises. I will not accept any masculine or other person usurping my power ever again. She or he may only take what I offer up to them on the altar of my own personal power exchange, but no more. I get how it can feel like yet another means of coloring us invisible when a partner impresses upon us her or his need that we be straight, look straight, act straight. (Funny that we’re alternately accused of these things, then how they are demanded of us by some.)

I’ve watched femmes being told not to wear certain kinds of clothing and jewelry or you know, bird feather and tropical flower embellishments in their hair, because it screamed “I’m Here and I’m Queer Femme” which made a guy feel uncomfortable with the way he needed to be seen. I don’t have the answers to those tricky issues; they are for couples to grapple with themselves, but I do see how it can be invalidating to a femme who experiences invisibility. I also see how wearing queer visibly could potentially invalidate a transguy who no longer wishes to be read as queer. Therein the tricky wicket. I disagree, however, that this is always and necessarily about the concept of masculine-centrism. Trans(male) issues are tender and bitterly tough. There are some real similarities between our (femme and trans) invisibility such that I would never negate their experiences simply because they are masculine and masculine must always equal enemy. That isn’t my position and I hope no masculine person reading this thread has read me as believing such.

And also, just to clarify. The Transmen I know, are male to me, regardless of bits, but I do look at them differently and "feel" them differently than say, my ex-husband.

Since I’ve already opened the door, I want to speak to this. When we say to/about transmen that they are different than cis-men, that they “feel” different, even if our intentions are pure and good, we are very possibly negating and erasing Who They Are. And that is never good. To say “you are male to me” only throws an ugly light on what we want not to do, which is to set them apart. It suggests that there is really something else going on there, but you know, I’m cool, so I get them.

June, you and Bit are two women that I fucking admire, respect and adore. I see how your voices are incredibly influential in this space. I speak to these issues with you here because it matters, and because I believe both of you are willing to listen and engage in ways that are more open than we’ve seen elsewhere. I believe we, as feminine people strongly need good allies, and that our allies need to understand that old language is no longer useful to us, that it no longer serves us in the ways we once allowed. I also believe that we have to be the best allies we can. That’s why, in this post, I’m speaking the same truth to transmasculine issues. Sometimes, it’s just too easy to miss this stuff, because, you know, it’s not *our* stuff.

It’s not my intention to divert the thread, but it’s important to me that when we name the ways we choose to take back our power, or call for the ways in which we need support, we are careful not to create a dichotomy that wouldn’t work if flipped. I want a balance of power; I chose equanimity. I have to be willing to look at all of the ways that my own employment of power affects the world around me first.

Okay, big breath.

I’m ready for better and more true conversation. Even if it’s hard. Even if it hurts me a little. Especially if it learns me anything good.

[Random]

If I am out of line.. then please let me know..

Cause this has been on my mind since i started reading this thread.

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

Since I started reading this.. There is about five pages dedicated to talking about our partners. Is that all there is to us? Is all we are between our legs and who we partner with? Can Femme's not have a discussion without bringing butches, cis-guys, transmen into it? I have been reading the butch thread and guess what? we arn't the focus...

Am I wrong? Am I just seeing this because it's something I have to fight against all the time.. Internally.. Once I am partnered, I fight against becoming a two headed monster.. With my partner's head being the biggest and most predominate..

If I am out of line, or having tunnel vision, please let me know... Right now I am in transition.. Trying to be more than Mother, more than Partner... And it's hard as fuck. For me.. I have an image of what femme is stuck in my mind.. and that is sure as hell not me.. Unlearning this programming is so very important...

I'm not the donna reed, suzi homemaker, dress up doll that I see in my head.. I'm not some sweet submissive... I'm not a woman who's world revolves around her partner..But that's what is in my head... That is what I've allowed to be planted there.. If I am not that.. then I couldn't be femme, I'm not *enough* That is what I am trying to reprogram..

[Bit]

Cyn, we can talk about that image in your head---I struggled hard with it too, and I'm willing to bet all kinds of posters in this thread have dealt with it--but for right now I really need to answer Julie, because this goes to who she and I are, both as Femmes and as members of the community. Forgive me this post on it please?

Originally Posted by evolveme

Although I understand why you draw a distinction for transmen in this (because to queer a transman without consent might be invalidating and erasing and thereby a transphobic act), it’s still problematic for me because to set him aside as a ‘special class’ from everyone else is to say:
*I hold you with kid gloves because you really aren’t like everyone else*.
*Your self-determined heterosexuality is more special/different than a cis-sexed male’s and so I’m going to protect you.*

Straight up, Julie: I do NOT sleep with biomales. Not ever, not under any circumstances. (Made that mistake once, done with it forever.) I only included them in the hypothetical example because you did, and I was trying to answer you in kind.

I am Queer. For me, that means I do not sleep with straight men.

Would I make an exception for a Straight-Identified Transman if I fell in love with him? Yes. But it would BE an exception and he would HAVE TO accept me as a Queer both in my sexuality and in my community for us to have a healthy relationship.

Most of the Straight-Identified Transmen I have known didn't want to do that. That's completely understandable; I tried to change who I was for a couple of them, I tried to force myself to be straight and it didn't work--so why should I expect them to try to not be straight?

Queer-Identified Transmen, on the other hand, are my cuppa tea. Neither of us has to change, just as when I am with a Butch, neither of us has to change. We are both Queer together, and that is as it should be for my good mental health (and presumably for theirs too!).

I am not Pansexual, but Transensual... I define that to mean that I am comfortable in all ways including sexually with Transgendered Butches (for example, the ones who are Third Gender, Two Spirit, or Gender Queer) and Queer Transsexual Men.

About the kid leather gloves... There is an early stage of transition that is common to many Straight-Identified Transmen where they have an intense need to "Straighten" the Femme they are with because they need to see themselves as completely Straight. When that stage hits--I call it a stage because I've seen many Transmen come through it and relax considerably, afterwards--then a Femme cannot win for losing unless she is TRULY happy about sleeping with biomales, because nothing less will do to prove to the Transman that he is not "different."

Well, hello. MY being Straight (or not) does not prove anything about someone else's identity. And straight up--no pun intended--a Transman IS different. I happen to like the difference; most of the Transmen that I have known deplored the difference. Given those opposing attitudes, supporting them can be fraught with difficulties, and the only way I have found effective in dealing with those difficulties is kid leather gloves.

Does that mean I think Transmen are weak? Not no, HELL no. Transmen are some of the strongest beings on the planet. They just happen to bear really heavy burdens that call for extra consideration.

They'd treat me with the same gentleness and consideration if I needed it. Many of them have over the years.

Originally Posted by evolveme

And because, as I said earlier, I don’t want it done to me, I will not do it to ("queer by fucking") anyone else.

You CANNOT.

It is not possible for anyone to "make" someone else Queer.

I think you must have missed my last post on it, where I said that I know I cannot make anyone else Queer, that it is already inside them--or not. June and I were talking about the stereotype that equates sexual power with men, and thereby with Butches---and refuses it to women and thereby Femmes. We were talking about the wall she slammed into when she claimed that sexual power even in a discussion, even as a stereotype.

It is absolutely impossible to MAKE someone else be Queer.

Or Straight.

It's just not ever gonna happen.

,
Cath

[blush]

Originally Posted by Ms Cyn

If I am out of line.. then please let me know..

Cause this has been on my mind since i started reading this thread.

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

Since I started reading this.. There is about five pages dedicated to talking about our partners. Is that all there is to us? Is all we are between our legs and who we partner with? Can Femme's not have a discussion without bringing butches, cis-guys, transmen into it? I have been reading the butch thread and guess what? we arn't the focus...

I was thinking the very same thing. Why is it that we are most articulate about our relationships and our partners?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Ms Cyn

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

[snip]
I'm not the donna reed, suzi homemaker, dress up doll that I see in my head.. I'm not some sweet submissive... I'm not a woman who's world revolves around her partner..But that's what is in my head... That is what I've allowed to be planted there.. If I am not that.. then I couldn't be femme, I'm not *enough* That is what I am trying to reprogram..

I get so wrapped up in the unwrapping
That I sometimes forget the box
If I am a gift to myself--femme
What is under the ribbons, the bows--
The carefully chosen wrapping--
Each piece of me someone else's
Or are all the parts of those--me whole?

I couldn't write that out in regular sentences and I apologize. It's how I communicate sometimes.

I think....maybe...for me...that the different "roles" I've chosen ARE my femme experience. And that is not going to be yours or yours or yours or any of yours....same reality.

Femme, for me, is this woman who dresses to please herself. Who feels her body is her own in thigh highs and diving shirts. In blue jeans and t-shirts that are stained and dirty.

Femme, for me, is this woman who expresses things held to be "girly" with delight and no damned apologies.

Femme, for me, is this woman who can create pictures from words and write about romance and sex unabashedly and unashamedly.

My femme is not your femme and never will be. My femme may like to sit on the couch and ask for a foot rub. My femme may like to give foot rubs. My femme IS defined in some part by my attraction to butches.

I can not get around that or away from it. I'd still be femme if there were no butches, but that's kind of a silly, grandiose statement in my view.

I, after reading so much here, am beginning to feel frayed and frazzled as if my femme is not enough or maybe too much in the eyes of other femmes. And I know that's not true. I'm just speaking my own truth here and now.

So I think that for this femme--my femme experience is the total sum of all my labels and roles and expressions and lovers and femme friends. I don't think I can effectively unravel this present I am to myself without losing some of the pieces.

I do love that others can do this. I am learning so much in this thread. Thank you to everyone who has posted here.

[Lynn]

In this discussion, I'm still trying to untangle my identity as a woman from my identity as femme. I am a proud, fierce lesbian who reveres women of all orientations and types. I'm not talking about sexual attraction, only. I'm sexually attracted to butches, but, truthfully, there are women of all types who slay me. I remember that I had trouble reconciling my lesbianism with my own way of being. I'm now comfortable being feminine both in appearance and in my inner view. But, there was a time when I had trouble accepting this, as a lesbian. FEMME is where being a feminine woman and being a lesbian intersect, for me. Realizing and embracing my attraction to butches was a completely separate process from recognizing that "femme" was an aspect of my identity.

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to articulate something that I am just figuring out here.

[Bit]

Yikes! *hands the TX Self a bottle of Fray-Chek*

If I have played a part in the frazzled fraying, I'm sorry. I'm pretty analytical with things which fascinate me, and I can separate out intellectually those things which are not separate in life.... I can say here in this thread that for me "Queer is about sex and Femme is about gender," and I can talk about them as if they were separate things; but having lived without enough Butch energy in my life for many years, I know that I am different as a Femme depending on whether there are Butches around or not, and different yet again if there is sex in my life or not.... so even though I can talk as if they were separate, I can't compartmentalize them (sexuality and gender) quite so easily in life.

Nor do I want to. Part of the sexual thrill for me is being a Femme to a Butch. I like that. I like playing with that image and those roles.

Those images that haunt Ms. Cyn, especially the Donna Reed image, they haunt me too. I can never be Donna Reed, because yanno she was perfect, elegant, glamorous, never made a mistake, never put a foot wrong. Hell, I'm never in my life going to be glamorous or elegant or any of the rest of it.

I think what strikes me is that these images of femininity (Donna Reed, suzi homemaker, dress-up doll, sweet submissive) are tied to housework and obedience-to-the-men-who-own-one. Honestly, it makes me think of a slave--not in the BDSM sense, but in the real-life outrage-against-humanity forced sense.

If the epitome of all that is feminine is household slavery, how could ANYONE who is mentally healthy ever be "feminine enough" or "Femme enough"??

I had to find a different way to look at femininity and Femmeness. That's why I like the energy analogy. It isn't what I do or what particular personality I have or even whether or not someone masculine might "own" me--it's what kind of energy flows through me. I recognize that energy as Femme because I see it mirrored back to me again and again from the other Femmes in our community.

The amount and kind of Femme energy that flows through me might not be what appeals to every Butch, but it is "enough." I am Femme enough to suit myself... and really, who else has the right to judge?

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to articulate something that I am just figuring out here.

Oh, I think we're probably all trying to articulate, and figuring it out as we go. *smiling* You're doing very well.

[Darth Denkay]

I have found this thread extremely enlightening to read. Admittedly I sometimes actually feel like a peeping Tom - should I even be reading this since it is, and should be, femme space. However, I can and do grow from all of your voices, so I'm guessing that reading is not intruding. My perspective is that because this is femme space I need to remain an observer. Of course, even by just posting this I am putting myself into it, but I guess I just wanted to share that I think non-femmes can gain much from reading this but our input should be limited. I hope this post does not feel intrusive.

[blush]

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

[christie]

Originally Posted by blush

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

Thank you for bringing this up!

It does feel like a ranking system to me. I have never understood it...

To me, I see "high femme" and I wonder what that person might be smoking! Is that like, "high as gas" or "high as Jesus"??

Its funny that I have never seen "low femme"...

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by christie0918

Its funny that I have never seen "low femme"...

I think this might apply to any femme shorter than 5'0".
But.... I could be wrong.

[christie]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I think this might apply to any femme shorter than 5'0".
But.... I could be wrong.

LMAO!!! I thought that was any femme other than me... I usually tower over everyone... no matter the ID...

[Julie]

Originally Posted by blush

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

Blush.. I sarcastically have in my profile as my identity: Femme (neither high nor low). As I have heard these terms and have been asked, if I identify as a high femme or just a femme (lol). Are we talking maintenance here? Pretty much astounds me.

And what does high maintenance vs. low maintenance really mean? I am not a car for god sake! Though I do prefer rich dark roast coffee rather than maxwell house. Get's my engine purring!

Julie