"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Not always. I was looking at it like a word problem. I'm homosexual, by textbook definition, but I am not a lesbian. Therefore, not all homosexuals are lesbians. So, no...for me....homosexual does not equal lesbian.

For you it does, but for me it does not. And if all parts of the equation do not agree, then it cannot be true. True meaning always true, in every situation.

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

Lesbian/Homosexual are Synonyms.
Not according to me, but according to the english language.
I guess whatever you are trying to say is going right over my head.
If I understand correctly, you are a homosexual who does not want the word homosexual applied to you? Thanks for trying to explain, I just am not getting it. Either way, I have tried 3 times to get clarification and I'm still not understanding so perhaps we ought to leave it there?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Lesbian/Homosexual are Synonyms.
Not according to me, but according to the english language.
I guess whatever you are trying to say is going right over my head.
If I understand correctly, you are a homosexual who does not want the word homosexual applied to you? Thanks for trying to explain, I just am not getting it. Either way, I have tried 3 times to get clarification and I'm still not understanding so perhaps we ought to leave it there?

Fair enough. I don't expect to understand everything about everyone nor to have them understand everything about me. I do expect them to respect me without invalidation and I, in turn, try to do the same.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Gemme, are you trying to say that you don't like the word lesbian being used to ID or label you?

I ask because I am kinda confused myself but I do get a bit about where you are coming from.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

Gemme, are you trying to say that you don't like the word lesbian being used to ID or label you?

I ask because I am kinda confused myself but I do get a bit about where you are coming from.

Yes, what you are asking is true. I do not identify as a lesbian. But no, that's not what I am saying.

I just posted something in response to AJ. When you read it, does my response make more sense now? If so, great. I can stop talking and feeling like everyone is speaking, like Corkey mentioned, a different language. To me, it's very simple. Obviously, and for once, I am apparently thinking along a higher plane (or different one altogether), maybe? I dunno.

If you still don't understand, I'll try again. It's important to me that I am understood. I don't have to be agreed with. Just understood.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Yes, what you are asking is true. I do not identify as a lesbian. But no, that's not what I am saying.

I just posted something in response to AJ. When you read it, does my response make more sense now? If so, great. I can stop talking and feeling like everyone is speaking, like Corkey mentioned, a different language. To me, it's very simple. Obviously, and for once, I am apparently thinking along a higher plane, maybe? I dunno.

If you still don't understand, I'll try again. It's important to me that I am understood. I don't have to be agreed with. Just understood.

Yes i fully understand now and the response makes more sense

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

Let me try another path, as my thought process hasn't had any success yet with anyone else.

I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. By definition, I am homosexual. I'm not trying to bend the definition for homosexual (or lesbian either). I am NOT a lesbian. So....FOR ME....the terms lesbian and homosexual (in my life and in my bed) are not synonymous.

I understand what the dictionary says. I've spent 30ish years referencing it so I understand what Cyclopea was saying.

I'm saying....for me.....that if you flip it, like a word problem, it's not true for me. I'm not saying it can't be true for anyone or everyone else. I'm not trying to define anything for anyone else other than MYSELF.

All lesbians are homosexual (as noted in Cyclopea's copy and paste of a dictionary entry). True, right? Not all homosexuals are lesbians. There are homosexual men who are not lesbians as well as ME. I am not a lesbian, though I am homosexual by definition. Soooooo......homosexual does NOT equal lesbian, but lesbian DOES equal homosexual.

Clear as mud?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Let me try another path, as my thought process hasn't had any success yet with anyone else.

I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. By definition, I am homosexual. I'm not trying to bend the definition for homosexual (or lesbian either). I am NOT a lesbian. So....FOR ME....the terms lesbian and homosexual (in my life and in my bed) are not synonymous.

I understand what the dictionary says. I've spent 30ish years referencing it so I understand what Cyclopea was saying.

I'm saying....for me.....that if you flip it, like a word problem, it's not true for me. I'm not saying it can't be true for anyone or everyone else. I'm not trying to define anything for anyone else other than MYSELF.

All lesbians are homosexual (as noted in Cyclopea's copy and paste of a dictionary entry). True, right? Not all homosexuals are lesbians. There are homosexual men who are not lesbians as well as ME. I am not a lesbian, though I am homosexual by definition. Soooooo......homosexual does NOT equal lesbian, but lesbian DOES equal homosexual.

Clear as mud?

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

Yes i fully understand now and the response makes more sense

Awesome!

Thank you.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Awesome!

Thank you.



*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

No, I consider homosexual men to be gay men. All male homosexuals are, using the dictionary definition, gay men. All female homosexuals, again using the dictionary definition, are lesbians. Since our species is sexually dimorphic (not all one gender) homosexual would have to refer two both homosexual males (gay men) and homosexual females (lesbians). I am a bit confused how A = B if B is not = A.

If 2+3 = 5 then 3+2 must also equal five. If 3+2 equals, say, six, then 2+3 cannot equal five.

cheers
Aj

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Awesome!

Thank you.



*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope.

No problem!!!!

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

This is exactly where I am at.
Lesbian=Female Homosexual, but not the reverse? Not getting it.

[Corkey]

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

[Corkey]

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Corkey

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

I don't understand your argument that the fact that other languages exist somehow changes the meaning of the english word "lesbian".

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Corkey

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

Ummm, no, I don't see how you get there. Because you can take a word in French and translate it to a German word with the same meaning. There is a French word for dog. There is German word for dog. There is an English word for dog. These are not ALL the same word but they ALL reference a four-legged mammal of the species Canis familiaris descended from Canis lupus. The German word for dog is hund. The French word for dog is chien. The German word for dog does not map to the English word for, say, bird. The French word for dog does not map to, say, the German word for cat. Presuming that someone spoke all three languages, they would look at my pooch and could use hund, chien or dog at will and depending upon the listener's tongue, that person would know that they are talking about Angus (our Newfoundland/Bearded collie mix) and not Willow (our calico cat).

Cheers
Aj

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual

this definition only works if the "lesbian" is sexually attracted to someone whose gender is "woman". what about the person whose gender is butch? or transguy? or genderqueer? or intersex? or fill-in-the-blank?

this definition of "lesbian" demands we continue to swallow a binary gender paradigm. such a paradigm has been proven to be greatly limited, limiting, and evolving. it has been many years since science/medicine discovered there were more genetic combinations than xx and xy.

additionally, there was a time when "heterosexual" meant "attracted to 2 sexes" and "homosexual" meant "attracted to 1 sex"...thus, btw, making "heterosexuality" an "abnormality".

generalizations usually end up eliminating important information...evolution in thinking as well as evolution in science being the information threatened with elimination at the moment.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

this definition only works if the "lesbian" is sexually attracted to someone whose gender is "woman". what about the person whose gender is butch? or transguy? or genderqueer? or intersex? or fill-in-the-blank?

this definition of "lesbian" demands we continue to swallow a binary gender paradigm. such a paradigm has been proven to be greatly limited, limiting, and evolving. it has been many years since science/medicine discovered there were more genetic combinations than xx and xy.

additionally, there was a time when "heterosexual" meant "attracted to 2 sexes" and "homosexual" meant "attracted to 1 sex"...thus, btw, making "heterosexuality" an "abnormality".

generalizations usually end up eliminating important information...evolution in thinking as well as evolution in science being the information threatened with elimination at the moment.

Lesbian is a synonym for female homosexual.