"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Apocalipstic]

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*sighs* but did you notice my point about "lesbian sex" is a stereotype? That's all I even addressed in my post.

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

Okay, here is what I SERIOUSLY do not get.

How is it that by my saying that I do not identify as a lesbian...how am I insulting anyone? HOw is that a negative comment towards someone who does?

That's a lot like saying I am insulting all raspberry lovers when I say I think raspberries are disgusting.

Huh? I really am not getting this, am I? I am struggling right now with trying to share how I personally view my own personal identity. I am not saying that going down on a woman should squick you out, Apocalipstic. I am not saying that it can not be a fabulous, erotic, romantic, mind-blowing experiencing for you.

I am saying that for me it is a traumatic event that I never want to repeat again in this lifetime.

How does my personal choice reflect on yours? How does my saying I do not want to be called a lesbian translate into I think all lesbians are yucky?

I am really really really not understanding this and I am posting this from a very emotional place right now. I am also going to leave for work in a few so my non-response just means I am afk and not that I am ignoring the conversation.

To be really clear, I am not angry at this discussion. I am hurt by it but not angered.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.

I didn't miss you're point at even slightly... I was making my own point related to you continually using the term "lesbian sex" as if it means something specific that everyone should understand.

Also I have not stated how I identify as far as "lesbian" goes... I'm not sure what you "do not have any issues with" as far as my identity.

ETA: (because I just read your most recent post) I personally in no way got the impression you hate lesbians, (and I'm wondering where that was implied)... and I am truly sorry you're as upset as you are, unfortunately when people have hard discussions it can feel personal... I assure you on my end it's not.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.




Okay, here is what I SERIOUSLY do not get.

How is it that by my saying that I do not identify as a lesbian...how am I insulting anyone? HOw is that a negative comment towards someone who does?

That's a lot like saying I am insulting all raspberry lovers when I say I think raspberries are disgusting.

Huh? I really am not getting this, am I? I am struggling right now with trying to share how I personally view my own personal identity. I am not saying that going down on a woman should squick you out, Apocalipstic. I am not saying that it can not be a fabulous, erotic, romantic, mind-blowing experiencing for you.

I am saying that for me it is a traumatic event that I never want to repeat again in this lifetime.

How does my personal choice reflect on yours? How does my saying I do not want to be called a lesbian translate into I think all lesbians are yucky?

I am really really really not understanding this and I am posting this from a very emotional place right now. I am also going to leave for work in a few so my non-response just means I am afk and not that I am ignoring the conversation.

To be really clear, I am not angry at this discussion. I am hurt by it but not angered.

The very last thing I want to do is hurt you! xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

Just sometimes when someone new, or who thinks differently says we are all Lesbians, the responses can sound like being a Lesbian is the most disgusting thing in the world.

I understand that to you, this is true and I understand why.

I just wish that the general you, not you personally, would maybe use a softer tone when discussing Lesbians.

It is just as hurtful to us/them, as it was to you those times when someone told you you were not a good Lesbian.

Make sense at all?

[Corkey]

I'm going to say this once and then leave the thread, because I've had it trying to say this over and over. NO ONE has said that being a lesbian is a bad thing, NO ONE has implied that lesbians are less than, NO ONE has said anything about lesbians that even in the slightest way puts down lesbians. What has been said is that not ALL homosexual women ARE lesbians. All this getting upset over something not said or implied by those who who have stated they aren't lesbians is foolishness and down right crap. Now have fun tearing folks apart over what hasn't been said. It's starting to sound like a broken record, and isn't community building in the least.
Have a wonderful Holiday!

[Blue_Daddy-O]

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

[BullDog]

I personally haven't seen anyone object to anyone else not identifying as a lesbian. Are we speaking different languages? WTF

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I personally haven't seen anyone object to anyone else not identifying as a lesbian. Are we speaking different languages? WTF

this is such a good question. and i think the answer is both "yes and no". we're speaking exactly the same language. but our angst proves that the dictionary definition of words isnt the only way in which we understand words! you understand one thing and i understand another. it doesnt make either of us wrong, it simply means there's a learning curve to understanding one another's filters and perspectives with regard to language.

Cyclopea asked relevant questions and so did i. neither of us did the best job answering the other. i left the conversation feeling like i was being invalidated and definitely like the enemy. today, i still feel like the enemy. no one called me the enemy but it does not prevent me from feeling that way. i dont blame anyone for the way i feel. but that i was regarded as the enemy was made clear in more than one mind based on the PMs i've gotten. it wouldn surprise me to discover that those on the opposite side of the discussion feel invalidated as well.

one of the reasons people react so strongly is because they feel threatened. fortunately, here, we share the one thing that makes conversations like this possible: we all believe it's important is to remind one another that individual opinions dont necessarily mean that we think the other is wrong. it only means that we dont understand one another yet.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

You talk about us here and how much you love us and then state that we are selfish and ridiculous for taking offense at non-lesbians who express their dislike of the words we use to describe ourselves. That seems to dilute the whole "love" message. In fact it seems wildly disrespectful and dismissive- not loving at all.
You conclude that we are Changing and Evolving. What exactly do you mean by that?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

You talk about us here and how much you love us and then state that we are selfish and ridiculous for taking offense at non-lesbians who express their dislike of the words we use to describe ourselves. That seems to dilute the whole "love" message. In fact it seems wildly disrespectful and dismissive- not loving at all.
You conclude that we are Changing and Evolving. What exactly do you mean by that?

<tongue=in cheek>

Think of it in the ways that computers evolve and change. For example, my first computer, which I bought back in the early 90's, was a 486/SX with (get ready for it) 16mb of RAM and a 126mb hard drive! Now, if I still had that machine I'm sure it would probably boot up but it wouldn't really be useful and no sane person would want one other than as a museum piece. There's nothing *wrong* with the 486/SX. It had its time and is an interesting piece of history but anyone who thinks it is still a truly useful piece of technology is hopelessly antiquarian and perhaps should be put out to technological pasture lest they mess things up for the rest of us. If one is still using a 486/SX one should, at minimum, have the common decency to be embarrassed about it.

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

Your excitement and laughter at coming back calling people out on such a sensitive subject where so many have expressed hurt feelings is disconcerting to say the least... but what ever floats your boat.

All I can say to that is please quote where people actually stated they take offense to others not ID'ing as lesbian when you do... the last thing that's needed here is more twisting and misunderstanding of peoples statements just to stir the pot.

Not saying that you like to do that... would just like to see people using quotes INSTEAD of restating people comments using entirely different words... hence changing the context... and then arguing the altered context.

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

Trust me, no one else's identity could ever be a threat to mine.
It's rudeness that I take umbrage at.

So, while we're on the subject, I find this particular statement extremely rude and patronizing.

How on earth have you concluded that rejecting lesbian identity is an earmark of "change" and "evolution" for lesbians? Guess what, lesbians still exist as (Shock! Horror!) lesbians.

What you said intones that those who remain lesbian id'ed are not evolved. It implies that the logical evolution of lesbian identity is... a rejection of lesbian identity (wtf?).

I find what you said to be incredibly arrogant, dismissive and mythologizing of many of us, especially in light of the fact that you are male id'ed and, I'm assuming, non lesbian. Is this how you have reconciled your journey to self actualization as male? What I mean is, I'm assuming at some point you thought you were a dyke/lesbian (if not, please forgive the assumption), and along the way, fully embraced the fact that you were actually male. So, do you identify your journey as a natural course of "lesbian evolution", and for your femme counterparts, a full on rejection of the identity, because that's how it played out for you? I'm really curious why you're framing it this way.

If you don't get why I find what you said appallingly condescending, let me put it to you this way; It's something akin to a guy telling a "bunch of hysterical bitches to just calm down" as he laughs at their outrage. You have no right to make such a pronouncement about me, or other lesbians. Now, if you actually id as a male lesbian, then I'd be really curious to hear your take on your own personal evolution. If you aren't, Id prefer that you refrain from making determinations about mine and that of other lesbians.

Your beliefs DO NOT determine the evolutionary process, no ones do, not mine, not anyone's. Only nature can put her pimp stick down on that.

[NJFemmie]

You being told you weren't a (so-called) 'good' lesbian - doesn't make you any less of a lesbian (yes, I know that you do not ID as such, but let's use this as a for instance), it seems to me that there were obvious incompatibilities, and the person who said this to you should have exercised tact and sensitivity instead of being hurtful and callous. Mean people do suck.

Arwen, I'm sorry that you went through that. And I am sure you know that on some level, what happened to you does not, by any means, constitute "lesbian sex" - but rather, you being taken advantage of by a very warped and fucked up individual, who most likely happened to be a lesbian.

On that note... I agree with Metro - there is no such thing as lesbian sex. Sex is sex. What happens behind closed doors doesn't categorize itself - we do the categorizing based on stereotypes, assumptions and misinformation.

[Arwen]

On second thought, I am going to unsubscribe from this thread.

This is not about what a lesbian is or isn't for me.

It is for others.

Because this is such an emotionally charged issue for me and because I am actually sitting here in tears feeling like I need to throw up, obviously I am not going to be able to unwrap my tangled up issues over this word.

My feelings about the word are hurting some of you and making you feel as if I think how you love is a bad thing. I am truly very sorry for that. I never meant for that to be. In trying to explain my own feelings, I've offended some folks I count as friends.

Please know that I am not angry. This is not about anger at all.

I do appreciate those of you who have rationally discussed this. I do understand where you are coming from. I just wish you could see that my personal choice does not demean yours any more than your personal choice demeans mine.

Right now, I feel as if some of you think I hate lesbians and that is simply not true. But it hurts very deeply so I am withdrawing myself at this time from this particular thread.

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP ===>

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

On that note... I agree with Metro - there is no such thing as lesbian sex. Sex is sex. What happens behind closed doors doesn't categorize itself - we do the categorizing based on stereotypes, assumptions and misinformation.

thank you to both you and Metro for bringing up this point. this was what i was trying to say yesterday...that human beings are simply "sexual". even the celibate are sexual beings who then choose to do something else with the energy besides sexual expression.

the only reason i wondered if the concepts of "lesbian = female homosexual = a woman who has sex with women" is because that seems to limit the definition of a person to whomever they have sex with.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

I would like to know what I have to do or say or become for MY hurt to matter. Because it seems that, in the same way that for 190 years 'all men were created equal, just some were more equal than others' there is an unspoken ethic of 'everyone's pain is equally valid, but some folks pain is more valid than others'. (not saying YOU are doing this--not at all, I'm mostly thinking out loud)



Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I would like to know what I have to do or say or become for MY hurt to matter. Because it seems that, in the same way that for 190 years 'all men were created equal, just some were more equal than others' there is an unspoken ethic of 'everyone's pain is equally valid, but some folks pain is more valid than others'. (not saying YOU are doing this--not at all, I'm mostly thinking out loud)



Cheers
Aj

You are right, I am being a co-dependant freak and trying to backpetal because I don't want anyone to feel hurt.

And since I actually agree with what you said, I somehow felt we had less right to be hurt than Arwen.

ugh ugh ugh.

My appologies.

[BullDog]

Corkey there are people here who are lesbians who think that derogatory things have been said here- so our opinions don't matter?

Arwen and anyone else, I personally don't care whether anyone identifies as a lesbian or not, but I don't appreciate the stereotypes and the oh ick lesbian sentiments or that we are somehow less evolved- which is all in this thread.