Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Michael Vick WAS punished & served his time, WTF more does he have to do, go through to make y'all see that. What would satisfy you Sachita? A public punishment? Him living on the streets? Working @ a Waffle House? Don't you see that shit enough??

That is just as GROSS wanting this man to PAY more than he already has. I'm no fan but damn could it be he knows he did wrong?

No one is asking him to pay any more. I'm just saying that I can't forgive him. The fact that he went to prison and paid a fine for what he did does not make it go away and I'm sorry but I won't, can't and don't think Obama should have been involved.

Look you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm sticking with mine. If it were up to me, and its not, I would have taken illegal measures against him. Animal abuse, for me, ranks as high as child abuse, in my book. A violent act against innocence. If I could legally punish him and not go to jail then you bet your ass I would. oh yeah.

So its cool. Thats your opinion- gross, like it or not. I'm firm on this.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Michael Vick WAS punished by the system this country has set up, and yes you amongst others would have him pay in other forms, the lynch mob mentality I've come across on this thread is just as gross if not even more considering his time was served. I'm at work so I will come back later and point out where Vick's time served has not been punishment enough. It's even MORE gross considering the Favre, Sheen, Gibson, Rothlesberger pig pen going on. No one calls for their heads or lives, then again they're WHITE misunderstood men.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Michael Vick WAS punished by the system this country has set up, and yes you amongst others would have him pay in other forms, the lynch mob mentality I've come across on this thread is just as gross if not even more considering his time was served. I'm at work so I will come back later and point out where Vick's time served has not been punishment enough. It's even MORE gross considering the Favre, Sheen, Gibson, Rothlesberger pig pen going on. No one calls for their heads or lives, then again they're WHITE misunderstood men.

wow.. hmmmm its not a lynch mob mentality or a racial issue. Look you can keep on and on, insult me because of my point of view but it won't change my mind one single bit and never have I stood more firmly on an issue. Don't even get me started on "this country" because I'd surely piss a lot of people off. lol

I'm just not going to toss this all over the place turning it into a bunch of non-constructive action. If you'd like to then have at it!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Sachita

wow.. hmmmm its not a lynch mob mentality or a racial issue. Look you can keep on and on, insult me because of my point of view but it won't change my mind one single bit and never have I stood more firmly on an issue. Don't even get me started on "this country" because I'd surely piss a lot of people off. lol

I'm just not going to toss this all over the place turning it into a bunch of non-constructive action. If you'd like to then have at it!

It's not a lynch mob mentality? You would take illegal measures if you had access to him and could get away with it but that's NOT a lynching? What, precisely, do you think a lynching WAS if not illegal measures taken with impunity?

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

It's not a lynch mob mentality? You would take illegal measures if you had access to him and could get away with it but that's NOT a lynching? What, precisely, do you think a lynching WAS if not illegal measures taken with impunity?

It's called my vigilante fantasy. Sorry but I can't change how I think or feel on this. It's not up to me, you're right and glad, thats cool. Now why not respect my viewpoint as I have yours? Because its based on a personal agenda or what "this country" allows?

Still not changing my mind. Nor would I change my mind about a predator that abuses children. To me they are almost the same or at least the emotion it invokes and its truly how I feel. But don't worry, I'm not running for office. lol

[Sachita]

oh AJ also you keep wanting to make this a black issue and for me it has nothing to do with that at all. I don't care what color or sex a person is. If they committed the crimes he cleared did against helpless animals I'd feel exactly the same way.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Sachita

oh AJ also you keep wanting to make this a black issue and for me it has nothing to do with that at all. I don't care what color or sex a person is. If they committed the crimes he cleared did against helpless animals I'd feel exactly the same way.

Of course it's a race issue, FFS we all know that men of color do not get tried the same as white men. Vick is a money maker, he serves the man a purpose, the cash cow privilege allowed him that second chance. Your fantasies are one step from the good ol boy hang 'em mentality that I truly believe would happen if people could get away with it. As passionate as you are about dogs, I've that same passion when it comes to our men being given a chance and not incarcerated.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Sachita

It's called my vigilante fantasy. Sorry but I can't change how I think or feel on this. It's not up to me, you're right and glad, thats cool. Now why not respect my viewpoint as I have yours? Because its based on a personal agenda or what "this country" allows?

Look, I'm not trying to change your mind. I don't think I can and I wouldn't bother to try. I'm glad you are willing to own that it's your vigilante fantasy. I'm not going to pretend, however, that what I'm reading from you does not have real-world consequences NOR am I going to pretend that you aren't a citizen, capable of serving on a jury. As I said the other day, the fact that if a black man and a white man are convicted for the same crime and you hold every other single factor constant, the black man is much more likely to get death than the white man, is based upon a pre-existing conception that is present in the minds of participants in the judicial system LONG before they see the inside of a courtroom. I am sure you are passionate about this subject and I’m equally certain that if it were my son and he stood accused--not convicted but accused--and even if the evidence was flimsy that you would have no problems voting to convict him and would sleep the sleep of the righteous that very evening. That doesn't mean I think you are a bad person, it means I think you are an white American who, if you were born 10 - 15 years either side of me, were trained in ways overt and subtle to fear the following in more or less this order:

Black men
Nuclear weapons
Communists
Russians
Arabs
Muslims

If you were born anywhere between the late 50's and mid 70's, we grew up with about the same media. I remember that media and I cannot get out of my head all the images of black man as threat.

Still not changing my mind. Nor would I change my mind about a predator that abuses children. To me they are almost the same or at least the emotion it invokes and its truly how I feel. But don't worry, I'm not running for office. lol

I know it's how I feel which is why I'm glad that it is vanishingly improbable I will ever have to rely on your tender mercies and the ability to keep your vigilante fantasies and/or other feelings in check.

Originally Posted by Sachita

oh AJ also you keep wanting to make this a black issue and for me it has nothing to do with that at all. I don't care what color or sex a person is. If they committed the crimes he cleared did against helpless animals I'd feel exactly the same way.

Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. The fact of the matter, Sachita, is that the same crime committed by a black man is ROUTINELY treated as being far more severe than one committed by a white man. It goes farther than that. If I had paddled my son in public, I'd be an abusive mother. If my wife paddled my son in public, she'd be a strict disciplinarian. We could do the *precise* same action but the downstream consequences would be highly disparate. She would most likely not have a visit from CPS, I would almost certainly wind up in a courtroom and ordered to take parenting classes. What's more, given your statements, I have every reason to believe that if you were sitting in that jury box you would, without hesitation, vote to convict me of child abuse and then, when talking about why you did, state (and believe) that race NEVER entered your mind. Again, I'm not calling you a racist, I'm calling you a white American raised in a particular time with a particular media zeitgeist. In that zeitgeist, blacks--male and female--are just this side of untamed creatures who sometimes need harsh discipline so that we'll act right. We are incorrigible by assumption.

The assumptions that I am trying to shine a bright light are just *there*, Sachita. They are in the background, it is the substrate upon which we have discussions of crime and punishment, law and order in this society. Most people will no more notice them than a fish notices water. They would be conspicuous ONLY in their absence. This is why I keep reiterating that I do not think you are a racist, simply an American. I am willing to bet that if you did a survey of every DA, every judge, every juror who has EVER been in the courtroom and part of the process that sent a black man to prison or to death row, you would not find one in a hundred who would say that race had ANYTHING to do with it. I'm sure that every single one of those people would say they were colorblind and didn't see color. I'm sure that every one of those people would invoke their black friends, neighbors or coworkers as proof of their commitment to racial harmony. I'm absolutely certain that every single one of those people would claim, swearing on the graves of their parents, the lives of their children and their own honor, that if the defendant had been a white man their voting behavior would have been PRECISELY the same.

And then, when the next case came to court, and it was similar but the defendant was white and he was given life or a long sentence with the possibility of parole and you asked them to explain how they could come up with such wildly disparate outcomes given the similarities of the case not a one of them would be able to explain it satisfactorily. There would be some hemming and hawing about some minor point of forensic or circumstantial trivia but at the end of the day, what we would have is an outcome that LOOKS based upon race and which no one involved in the process would be able to ever satisfactorily explain.

For the last two days, Sachita, that is the point I have been trying to get people to really grapple with here. I do not think that this is going to change your mind much less your feelings about this. But I cannot just sit by while this conversation goes on and pretend, for the rhetorical convenience of those that disagree with me, that there is not something deep in the American psyche that says that a black man who commits a crime is FAR MORE dangerous than a white man who commits a crime and is thus deserving of MUCH harsher and longer penalties. I can't because it's not true. When I want to pretend, I will put in a game in my Xbox, play D&D, watch some sci-fi movie or do something else to take my mind into the land of the fantastic. This isn't a time or subject where I think that maintaining pretense is reasonable.

And again, I'm not trying to change your mind or your feelings about this. I'm just trying to point out and shine a light on what I see happening. It has nothing to do with disrespect, in fact, it is BECAUSE I respect your opinion enough to take what you are saying seriously, to assume that this is a well-thought out position that you would be unlikely to hold, and to presume that your thoughts have actual consequences in the real world if the circumstances are right. I assume that you have meant every word that you have posted on this thread. I assume that you have thought about them before you clicked "submit reply" and that, therefore, there is nothing that you have posted that you do not mean.


Cheers
Aj

[nowandthen]

Here is a link to a man who Killed his two dogs to go on vacation. I had not heard about this until someone pointed it out to me yesterday.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/100041282/1178124

I have a pit/mix who has been attack 3 times by little dogs running up and trying to bite her. So I agree with many here. 1. dogs will act like dogs trained or not. 2. owners must understand the breed. 3. Racism is involved in everything, right or wrong. 4. using not relative situations to make a universal statement always backfires, nothing is universal. 5. If you go to the store and buy food including vegetables you participate in system of food. (truck delivery,water)

Yes, even if you are a vegan, you participate less and I support your choice, but we live in a first world country with a different value system that exploits other countries for our food systems as well as our own.
Anyway, my point is this, Animal abuse/Dog fighting is wrong.
He did his time, for me he lost the right to own a dog. He has a right to make a living. Racism is at play in the redemption narrative, who gets it who does not.
I for one do not know what is in another's heart or mind, or what pain looks like or how anyone but myself looks like. This media age gives a false sense of what is real or felt, I have misread many e-mails,post,pictures through my own lens and narrative and have been way wrong.
If we want to talk about football start a football thread.
and Last and probable the most controversial thing I am going to say is this, as a white american it becomes more and more important for me to unlearn the first world white privilege narrative ( colonialism), by this I mean fitting everything into how I have been trained to hear,read,and think. For me, animal abuse is wrong simple, but I do not grow or raise my food so I by my complicity abuse animals. I own leather, drive a truck, and buy plastic that ends up in the ocean or around a Sea-lions neck. Not long ago White folks had picnics at lynchings, I may have a relative that watched, just so you know the Irish were the most lynched prior to the civil war. There are those who believe BDSM is violent and abusive, I lived through the 80's. The War machine. Again, We all are complicate and participated in some form that is contributing to violence against both people and animals,
So the glass house and rock story seems to need review.

[nowandthen]

Originally Posted by nowandthen

Here is a link to a man who Killed his two dogs to go on vacation. I had not heard about this until someone pointed it out to me yesterday.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/100041282/1178124

I have a pit/mix who has been attack 3 times by little dogs running up and trying to bite her. So I agree with many here. 1. dogs will act like dogs trained or not. 2. owners must understand the breed. 3. Racism is involved in everything, right or wrong. 4. using not relative situations to make a universal statement always backfires, nothing is universal. 5. If you go to the store and buy food including vegetables you participate in system of food. (truck delivery,water)

Yes, even if you are a vegan, you participate less and I support your choice, but we live in a first world country with a different value system that exploits other countries for our food systems as well as our own.
Anyway, my point is this, Animal abuse/Dog fighting is wrong.
He did his time, for me he lost the right to own a dog. He has a right to make a living. Racism is at play in the redemption narrative, who gets it who does not.
I for one do not know what is in another's heart or mind, or what pain looks like or how anyone but myself looks like. This media age gives a false sense of what is real or felt, I have misread many e-mails,post,pictures through my own lens and narrative and have been way wrong.
If we want to talk about football start a football thread.
and Last and probable the most controversial thing I am going to say is this, as a white american it becomes more and more important for me to unlearn the first world white privilege narrative ( colonialism), by this I mean fitting everything into how I have been trained to hear,read,and think. For me, animal abuse is wrong simple, but I do not grow or raise my food so I by my complicity abuse animals. I own leather, drive a truck, and buy plastic that ends up in the ocean or around a Sea-lions neck. Not long ago White folks had picnics at lynchings, I may have a relative that watched, just so you know the Irish were the most lynched prior to the civil war. There are those who believe BDSM is violent and abusive, I lived through the 80's. The War machine. Again, We all are complicate and participated in some form that is contributing to violence against both people and animals,
So the glass house and rock story seems to need review.

A friend just sent me this on face book after I hit sent on here.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/157372...-animal-rights

[nowandthen]

A friend just sent me this on face book after I hit sent on here.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/157372...-animal-rights

I find my brain can not always express clearly what I am trying to convey. to be clear I was trying to express some of what the Professor here is speaking to and trying not to derail the conversation. I mostly likely failed in my articulation, but I agree that doing it wrong or badly teaches me more than when I do it right.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

---------------------------------------------------------------



The POS pictured on the right is David Santuomo, 43, a Columbus, OH, firefighter who last December wanted to go on a cruise with his girlfriend but did want to pay for boarding for his two adopted dogs, Sloopy and Skeeter. So to save himself some money, he took his dogs into the basement, tie them to a pipe suspending their bodies and shot them both numerous times. He then dumped their bodies on the plastic he had already laid out, wrapped them up and dumped them in a trash bin behind the fire station where he worked. What makes this even sadder is that at least two neighbors had offered to watch the dogs while he was away.

This week, as part of a plea deal, Santuomo pleaded guilty to two counts of animal cruelty and one count of possessing a criminal tool a homemade silencer, all three misdemeanors. Franklin County Municipal Judge Harland H. Hale sentenced him to 90 days, to be served over 2 years, $4,500 in restitution, $150 fine, 200 hours of community service and he cannot possess any pets or firearms for 5 years. He also has to write a letter of apology to a firefighters magazine and to readers of The Dispatch newspaper. He has yet to face an internal disciplinary hearing with Fire Chief Ned Pettus Jr.

Felony charges were not pursued because there is no felony animal cruelty law in Ohio!!

After shooting and killing the two dogs he had adopted from the humane society, Santuomo was actually so proud of himself that he bragged to fellow firefighters. Thankfully, they were were not amused, but disgusted by his actions and his bragging.

“He later bragged about killing his pets to fellow firefighters, and he showed no remorse, even joking about it,” Assistant County Prosecutor Heather Robinson said. “Fellow firefighters were disgusted by what he did, and the Capital Area Humane Society was called to investigate.”

His lawyer calls his actions an isolated case and out of character but it seems Santuomo showed his character quite clearly when he gave courtroom reporters the finger.

And this waste of human life is still working as a firefighter!! Is this someone you would want to trust your life, or the lives of your precious furry family members to in the case of an emergency?? After pleading guilty he should have been removed from his position immediately! Fired!! And I’d also like to know what this business is of him being allowed to serve his measly 90 day sentence over a period of 2 years?? What makes him so special?

I wonder if that guy Tucker will call for his death.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

An absolute POS indeed...and a perfect example of the inherent unfairness of our "justice" system. I also find it absolutely disturbing that there is no such thing as felony animal abuse in the state. So...no matter how disgusting, how massive, how horrible the abuse is...it's not a felony. That's outrageous...and a pretty horrific failure of the legislature.

Honestly, since there's no way to convict him of a felony...I'd love to see the Humane Society sue his ass off...so they can use those funds to help animals. Seems like his adoption of the animals probably included some kind of agreement to take responsible care of them...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well June.

He's white, he gets a second chance.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

---------------------------------------------------------------



The POS pictured on the right is David Santuomo, 43, a Columbus, OH, firefighter who last December wanted to go on a cruise with his girlfriend but did want to pay for boarding for his two adopted dogs, Sloopy and Skeeter. So to save himself some money, he took his dogs into the basement, tie them to a pipe suspending their bodies and shot them both numerous times. He then dumped their bodies on the plastic he had already laid out, wrapped them up and dumped them in a trash bin behind the fire station where he worked. What makes this even sadder is that at least two neighbors had offered to watch the dogs while he was away.

This week, as part of a plea deal, Santuomo pleaded guilty to two counts of animal cruelty and one count of possessing a criminal tool a homemade silencer, all three misdemeanors. Franklin County Municipal Judge Harland H. Hale sentenced him to 90 days, to be served over 2 years, $4,500 in restitution, $150 fine, 200 hours of community service and he cannot possess any pets or firearms for 5 years. He also has to write a letter of apology to a firefighters magazine and to readers of The Dispatch newspaper. He has yet to face an internal disciplinary hearing with Fire Chief Ned Pettus Jr.

Felony charges were not pursued because there is no felony animal cruelty law in Ohio!!

After shooting and killing the two dogs he had adopted from the humane society, Santuomo was actually so proud of himself that he bragged to fellow firefighters. Thankfully, they were were not amused, but disgusted by his actions and his bragging.

“He later bragged about killing his pets to fellow firefighters, and he showed no remorse, even joking about it,” Assistant County Prosecutor Heather Robinson said. “Fellow firefighters were disgusted by what he did, and the Capital Area Humane Society was called to investigate.”

His lawyer calls his actions an isolated case and out of character but it seems Santuomo showed his character quite clearly when he gave courtroom reporters the finger.

And this waste of human life is still working as a firefighter!! Is this someone you would want to trust your life, or the lives of your precious furry family members to in the case of an emergency?? After pleading guilty he should have been removed from his position immediately! Fired!! And I’d also like to know what this business is of him being allowed to serve his measly 90 day sentence over a period of 2 years?? What makes him so special?

I do think the POS should face exactly the same punishment that Vick got, and he should be fired, and he should have no further contact with dogs. After serving time he should be able to get a job, just like Vick, but have no further contact with dogs. That the state of Ohio doesn't have felony charges as an option, and he can't be found guilty of a felony, he should face the maximum sentence there is for this crime in this state. Same way I feel about Vick I feel about this asswipe, useless to me, perhaps in the future he can regain employment as Vick has. There is NO Distinction in my mind between the two of them, race isn't the issue FOR ME. The crime IS. I am not pleased that society is fucked up, but it is. Same crime, equal punnishment.
You could ask me to forgive, but with out knowing them I could not, for I don't know if they were telling me the truth. I can live and let live, and I think that is the difference.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Sachita

No one is asking him to pay any more. I'm just saying that I can't forgive him. The fact that he went to prison and paid a fine for what he did does not make it go away and I'm sorry but I won't, can't and don't think Obama should have been involved.

Look you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm sticking with mine. If it were up to me, and its not, I would have taken illegal measures against him. Animal abuse, for me, ranks as high as child abuse, in my book. A violent act against innocence. If I could legally punish him and not go to jail then you bet your ass I would. oh yeah.

So its cool. Thats your opinion- gross, like it or not. I'm firm on this.

Sachita:

I have no doubt about what you say. None what-so-ever. I'm glad it's not up to you. I'm glad that the chances of my ever being in a position where you would be deciding MY fate is not up to you or a number of others here. I know that it is uncomfortable, and I’m not comfortable saying it, but I think that more than a lot of folks want to admit this is because Mr. Vick is a scary black man. I think that what members of the American majority see when they look at Mr. Vick is the nightmare monster they have been taught, from pretty much the first time someone sat them down in front of a TV until last night, is the most dangerous creature in their midst--the black man.

I'm glad it's not up to you because of your statement that if it were you would have taken illegal measures. I'm glad that it isn't 60 years ago, hell, I’m glad it isn't 50 years ago because probably as late as 1970 you could have reasonably walked up to Mr. Vick, shot him on the courthouse steps in a small Alabama town, in full-view of the local TV cameras and paid no penalty.

I know you would like to see Mr. Vick punished in perpetuity but this is why we have a legal system--flawed as it is--it is to make the system tilt toward justice and not vengeance. What you want is vengeance, what I want is punishment. Mr. Vick committed a crime. Mr. Vick served a prison sentence for his crime. Mr. Vick is now going back to doing a job he is, I presume, nominally competent at. I am not concerned about Mr. Obama's making a phone call, that concern drifted away on the tide of 'teach the black man a lesson' that I've been reading the last few days.

I'm curious, how destroyed do you think his life should be?

Cheers
Aj

[Diva]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Sachita:

I have no doubt about what you say. None what-so-ever. I'm glad it's not up to you. I'm glad that the chances of my ever being in a position where you would be deciding MY fate is not up to you or a number of others here. I know that it is uncomfortable, and I’m not comfortable saying it, but I think that more than a lot of folks want to admit this is because Mr. Vick is a scary black man. I think that what members of the American majority see when they look at Mr. Vick is the nightmare monster they have been taught, from pretty much the first time someone sat them down in front of a TV until last night, is the most dangerous creature in their midst--the black man.

I'm glad it's not up to you because of your statement that if it were you would have taken illegal measures. I'm glad that it isn't 60 years ago, hell, I’m glad it isn't 50 years ago because probably as late as 1970 you could have reasonably walked up to Mr. Vick, shot him on the courthouse steps in a small Alabama town, in full-view of the local TV cameras and paid no penalty.

I know you would like to see Mr. Vick punished in perpetuity but this is why we have a legal system--flawed as it is--it is to make the system tilt toward justice and not vengeance. What you want is vengeance, what I want is punishment. Mr. Vick committed a crime. Mr. Vick served a prison sentence for his crime. Mr. Vick is now going back to doing a job he is, I presume, nominally competent at. I am not concerned about Mr. Obama's making a phone call, that concern drifted away on the tide of 'teach the black man a lesson' that I've been reading the last few days.

I'm curious, how destroyed do you think his life should be?
Cheers
Aj

I wish we could ask the dogs.

I was going back and forth on this matter until I read this (highlighted). He could have been purple, for all I care. What he did was wrong. And then I think, 'he paid for his crime, he did his time'. And then I think, I wonder how those dogs are fairing? But never once did I think, "I wonder how those dogs are fairing because of that big, scary black man."

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Diva

I wish we could ask the dogs.

I was going back and forth on this matter until I read this (highlighted). He could have been purple, for all I care. What he did was wrong. And then I think, 'he paid for his crime, he did his time'. And then I think, I wonder how those dogs are fairing? But never once did I think, "I wonder how those dogs are fairing because of that big, scary black man."

Diva:

Please see my post above regarding your last sentence. You can have the reaction that this man should be sent to, say, Egypt where there ARE no laws against torture and that he should be given a full and complete tour through the meaning of 'medieval torture methods' before being allowed to die and never ONCE have a single conscious thought about a 'big, scary black man'. I don't think you, Sachita, or anyone else involved in this discussion is consciously thinking "big scary black man" or "teach blacks a lesson about cruelty" but I DO think that it is reflexive for members of the American ethnic majority to view blacks and Latinos as more dangerous.

Now, since you mention the dogs, I'll say something else. Had it turned out that one of the dogs had turned on Mr. Vick and taken a bite out of his neck severing his jugular and causing his death, I would shrug my shoulders and say that he got what he deserved. If he were only maimed or disfigured, I'd still shrug and say that he got what he deserved.

But that's not what we are talking about. What we're talking about is what *society* should do with or about Mr. Vick and that is what my concern is--that and what our motivations are for wanting to do or not do something to, with or about him.

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Diva:

Please see my post above regarding your last sentence. You can have the reaction that this man should be sent to, say, Egypt where there ARE no laws against torture and that he should be given a full and complete tour through the meaning of 'medieval torture methods' before being allowed to die and never ONCE have a single conscious thought about a 'big, scary black man'. I don't think you, Sachita, or anyone else involved in this discussion is consciously thinking "big scary black man" or "teach blacks a lesson about cruelty" but I DO think that it is reflexive for members of the American ethnic majority to view blacks and Latinos as more dangerous.

Now, since you mention the dogs, I'll say something else. Had it turned out that one of the dogs had turned on Mr. Vick and taken a bite out of his neck severing his jugular and causing his death, I would shrug my shoulders and say that he got what he deserved. If he were only maimed or disfigured, I'd still shrug and say that he got what he deserved.

But that's not what we are talking about. What we're talking about is what *society* should do with or about Mr. Vick and that is what my concern is--that and what our motivations are for wanting to do or not do something to, with or about him.

Cheers
Aj

Aj, I've missed the last several pages, but the first thing I saw when I logged on was the above comment. I know you can't necessarily separate the man's reality from his story. Obviously he's black, and that carries with it a whole complicated set of dynamics that wouldn't be the same if he'd been a white man. However, what YOU'VE been talking about is what society should do with or about Mr. Vick in the context of dealing with a black man. As a white woman in another country, while I may have some understanding of those dynamics, I see the situation through the eyes of a different reality. That doesn't in any way negate what you're saying. But since the man was convicted of a number of absolutely heinous crimes towards animals, my animal activist self sees THAT as the central point of the story. My belief system perhaps sees animals in a somewhat different light than others, but that doesn't mean that one set of beliefs/perception, what-have-you is any less important than any other. My belief system sees humans as PART of the world, not the centre of the world, and certainly not the only life form that counts. While it may be perfectly natural for us to give preference to matters involving our own species, if we don't come to an appreciation of the world of which we ar part of WE will (and I believe, already ARE) face the consequences of our arrogance.

I don't think that we need to have ONE conversation here. There are different aspects to this story that are important. It depends upon one's personal values/filter which part of the story we prioritize. But I AM sure that we can learn from each other in the process.

[dreadgeek]

Okay, I'll ask you the SAME question that I've asked others: what level of punishment would be enough? Please let us know.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by suebee

Aj, I've missed the last several pages, but the first thing I saw when I logged on was the above comment. I know you can't necessarily separate the man's reality from his story. Obviously he's black, and that carries with it a whole complicated set of dynamics that wouldn't be the same if he'd been a white man. However, what YOU'VE been talking about is what society should do with or about Mr. Vick. As a white woman in another country, while I may have some understanding of those dynamics, I see the situation through the eyes of a different reality. That doesn't in any way negate what you're saying. But since the man was convicted of a number of absolutely heinous crimes towards animals, my animal activist self sees THAT as the central point of the story. My belief system perhaps sees animals in a somewhat different light than others, but that doesn't mean that one set of beliefs/perception, what-have-you is any less important than any other. My belief system sees humans as PART of the world, not the centre of the world, and certainly not the only life form that counts. While it may be perfectly natural for us to give preference to matters involving our own species, if we don't come to an appreciation of the world of which we ar part of WE will (and I believe, already ARE) face the consequences of our arrogance.

I don't think that we need to have ONE conversation here. There are different aspects to this story that are important. It depends upon one's personal values/filter which part of the story we prioritize. But I AM sure that we can learn from each other in the process.