What makes a Butch "Butch"

[Dude]

Originally Posted by firegal

I hear you and agree on many of your statements. Ive had to remind myself that alot of these threads even amongst the controversy or undertones have folks reading/looking at them some of whom are brand spanking new to this site.Some of them growing,learning,maturing,absorbing.Who maybe need to hear both sides and/or need to hear someone else thoughts challenged.

I get reminded regularly that "its not always about you' which helps me realize somebody else may benefit from this convo.

I guess I should have been more clear with my post as I did not
mean any offense to the Original Post.
I do get there are people here of all ages and growing processes.
My post was not meant to minimize anyone but just an observation
I've had over the years.
I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.
I like to think someone might get some comfort from what old goats have
to say as well.
I'm not trying to shut down the conversation at all, in fact.
I like to think there is room for everyone here and I have earned my seat here
as well, thanks.

[firegal]

Originally Posted by Dude

I guess I should have been more clear with my post as I did not
mean any offense to the Original Post.
I do get there are people here of all ages and growing processes.
My post was not meant to minimize anyone but just an observation
I've had over the years.
I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.
I like to think someone might get some comfort from what old goats have
to say as well.
I'm not trying to shut down the conversation at all, in fact.
I like to think there is room for everyone here and I have earned my seat here
as well, thanks.

I'm thinking were r on same page. as i stated in my agreement with your statements...

My comments werent in opposition as you also state yours werent either.

just sharing information, points of view and thoughts which is what i love about all these threads.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Dude

I think threads like this set up more of a competition (undercurrent) amongst each other.

Originally Posted by Dude

I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.

I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.

[BullDog]

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

Thank you for this. I love when people see me and appreciate me for the woman I am.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

i love this post. <3

it reminds me of an article my partner shared with me recently which talked about the idea that some folks have that transitioning is somehow the "completion" of butchness...so all butch lesbians should essentially want to be trans*/want to be "real men." i've seen this stereotype especially coming from straight folks who misunderstand butch/femme and trans* identities, but i feel like it is related to the masculine/maleness supremacy in our society and the idea that we should all essentially have penis envy and want to be as cool as "real men" (yuck). to me this idea is harmful to everyone, and it misinterprets our queer identities.

(the article is here - it's written by a female butch - if anyone wants to check it out.)

[starryeyes]

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by starryeyes

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe

That question makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

[Cin]

I don’t think either male or female is necessarily synonymous with the identity of butch. For some butch is a gender unto itself. Others see a male or female identity as something to add to butch. To me the definition of butch and butch energy is fairly encompassed in the term female masculinity but I get that’s not for everyone.

I agree with bulldog’s assessment that woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront, as per usual.

The hierarchy I think is more a natural extension of a misogynistic society that places more value on anything male than it is a consciously held belief in the superiority of male id’d butches or any other masculine identity over female id’d butches. Whether this is better or not is debatable. At least a consciously held belief is owned and therefore can be challenged. The sneaky ways misogyny can control some of our thought processes is difficult to break through.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I don’t think either male or female is necessarily synonymous with the identity of butch. For some butch is a gender unto itself. Others see a male or female identity as something to add to butch. To me the definition of butch and butch energy is fairly encompassed in the term female masculinity but I get that’s not for everyone.

I agree with bulldog’s assessment that woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront, as per usual.

The hierarchy I think is more a natural extension of a misogynistic society that places more value on anything male than it is a consciously held belief in the superiority of male id’d butches or any other masculine identity over female id’d butches. Whether this is better or not is debatable. At least a consciously held belief is owned and therefore can be challenged. The sneaky ways misogyny can control some of our thought processes is difficult to break through.

Yes I agree with this. I don't believe people go around thinking oh well male id butches are superior. It is that butch gets defined on male terms because male is valued over female- and we get that from being in a misogynistic society.

Also despite all the talk about how horrible "the binary" is people still seem to have a hard time separating masculinity from male or femininity from female . I think it is abundantly clear that there are men with feminine energy and women with masculine energy and plenty of people with a mixture and who don't clear identify with being strictly male or female. Yet we tend to fall back to what we have been raised with. Again, I believe one of the major points of identifying as butch, femme or other gender identities is that we are forging our own paths.

Butch has everything to do with being a lesbian/queer masculine female for me- that is what butch is to me. It isn't for everyone. Butch is obviously not synonymous with female- not all females identify as butch and not all butches identify as female.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by starryeyes

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe

I hate that question.

It is right up there with the statement "well if you like women then you have not had the right man." Luckily, I have a great reply for that.

[Novelafemme]

[QUOTE=Miss Tick;577700]I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.[/QUOTE]

I love this! Thank you Miss Tick

[Dude]

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort!


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Dude

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort!


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone
I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Love this!!!

[thedivahrrrself]

Originally Posted by Dude

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?

Well, Dude, I like to think I do! But I am certainly not helpless.

Originally Posted by Dude

I'll just say I can sew

You have no idea how sexy that is, Dude! I'd give my big toe to be able to sew! If there is something you cannot do, I will so trade you something (cookies, maybe?) for your sewing services. LOL Stereotypes are usually there for a reason, but they are never all-encompassing. If someone does not appreciate your softer side, well she's not good enough for you anyway.

[Leigh]

What makes a Butch, "Butch"?

Easy .............

Whatever makes them who they are!

Seriously, what makes someone a butch is no different than what makes the rest of us human ~ we are who we are, that's good enough for me

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dude

Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dude

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

I did not mean to sound like you were being insensitive , just wanted you to know its hard for all of us.

Nah, I was cool in Vegas, I had a date. New Orleans was really rough though. We've all come a lonnnng way since then. The Reunions are wayy more friendly on all fronts.

[Deborah]

I agree with this Apocalipstic - it's always been hard for me to have femme friends even in the straight world...and I am sure I was partly responsible for that...at this point in my life and this stage of the game I don't take all that stuff so seriously or myself for that matter and I find it much easier to know who is real and who isn't and I love my femme friends....sadly right now most all of them live in Tennessee <3

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!