What attracts you to Ftms ......

[Darbonaire]

I didn't say anything about the 50's being "better" than now...for any reason..I said, people seemed to have more manners then...hell..let's say in the 60's 70's & 80's too......point is...people are MUCH more rude & self-absorbed in today's society in general.....but of course...not on this website...<grin>.....

[Kent]

Bumping back to the question of what attracts you to FtMs???

[QueenofSmirks]

If I think about the FtMs I've been /am attracted to, the commonality between them is the way they are comfortable being exactly who they are, their masculinity, and their swagger. Additionally, I've always appreciated their experience of being aware of gender and gender identity. Most heterosexual males I know do not think about this concept ever, or if they have it's from a very juvenile place. Note: I am stating these things from MY experiences with people *I* have known. This doesn't apply to all, just as I'm not attracted to all FtMs, nor do I believe all FtMs are any of the things I said above, not all heterosexual males ignore gender and gender identity. (I think I've covered all the bases...)

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I am not sure why kink was brought up.

I brought that descriptor into the convo because some folks see it as that. Some folks see it as a fetish (see below). Some folks just 'see' it. No adjectives or descriptors needed.

Originally Posted by Martina

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

Originally Posted by Chancie

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

Wow. Just wow.

I haven't said any of this (as opposed to those it is referencing) and I'm offended. Communication is a two way street. The weight of the message does not rest solely on the speaker. Not only must the speaker find a way to get their message across clearly but the listener must make the effort to make sure the message received is the message intended.

I feel that that is not happening.

Originally Posted by BullDog

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

I like how you feel such a connection with history and the impact our predecessors made towards giving us rights and the ability to choose what style we want and/or need to live our lives in. And I think that it's important to be reminded of that, but I do not feel that that should go hand in hand with what is being discussed.

I guarantee when I am engaging with my partner...whether sex specific or not...I do not think of every person who has come before me and their struggles in this world. Perhaps I am narrowminded or selfish or just not observant outside my own sphere but when I am with someone and I am doing something with that person that says "THIS is US", I'm thinking...strangely enough...of US.

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

Okay. I can give you that. I see that. The literal versus figurative analogy. A lot of wires can get crossed when different sides are coming from difference perspectives and I totally get this.

BUT

My panties get into an absolute snarl when it feels like someone is saying 'you are wrong' instead of 'that isn't for me and this is why'. The 'daydreaming' comment feels dismissive to me, like someone's ideal isn't "real enough" for someone else who is not involved in their life at all and not affected by their life choices at all.

Why can't that role be someone's REAL world? Why must the weight of history rest on the shoulders of some girl or guy who just wants to make their partner fucking dinner and do it in an apron and maybe in heels and probably with some rouge on?

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I sure can't and wouldn't tell anyone how to post.

No, but folks....see above...are saying what someone cannot post. Same difference in my mind.

I just feel that bringing up the 50s as the wonderful, poetic, patriotic, perfect moral, best manners way of life, is so far from the truth it is hard not to discuss it and call it out for what it was.

I mean it's cool if that how someone wants to live, but it is important to really see it for what it was. Just pointing out that fantasy vs. reality is important to discuss sometimes maybe is my point.

That's how i see it anyway.

Why? Why is it so damn important for someone to take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them and force a history lesson they may or may not know already down their throat?

Just to be clear, I would love to be able to stay at home. Kids or no kids. Whatever. But the reality is that I have to work, whether I'm in a relationship or not. I don't consider that a "June Cleaver" (Can we please call it something else because I think that name is inflammatory enough on its own?) lifestyle because most of my partners have cooked better than I do and I'm not doing the serving you in heels thing unless it's my choice and then it's going to be ON later that night. So, I take things from this 'pattern' shall I call it and use it as I see fit in my relationships but it does not define me and does not call for a morality lesson every time I engage in it.

I really think I've missed something here. I think it was Snowy that mentioned the Nostalgia thread and I think that a lot of hurt and frustration from when this was brought up in that thread didn't get ironed out. I missed out on what transpired there and maybe that's where some of the 'the 50's were the best damn time in the world' stuff came up. I actually didn't see any of that in here. Again, I've obviously missed something because a group said they did see it in here. Or maybe someone said something that was CLOSE to what was said before and everyone got riled up again, expecting the same thing from last time to happen. Guessing here as I wasn't there.

I really, really tried to let this go (obviously not enough as I am still typing), but it just feels too damn icky to me to do so. I'll be happy to discuss it further with anyone that would like to pm me though, as I do see that some folks are working hard to get the thread back on track.

/derail

I'm in the 'energy' group. I like a lot of masculinity, in whatever form it may present itself, to balance out my femininity. It's like salt on my watermelon, really.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Why is it so damn important for someone to take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them. . . .?

That's giving people a lot of power. How could someone here take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them?

And if you don't claim to be living the 50's household life, then my comments aren't relevant to you.

Oh and re saying something is wrong vs saying it isn't for me. I don't think this living arrangement is wrong. But holding up as exemplary an arrangement in which the male id'd person has power and privilege by virtue of his gender -- yeah that's wrong. Was wrong, is wrong, will always be wrong.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

That's giving people a lot of power. How could someone here take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them?

And if you don't claim to be living the 50's household life, then my comments aren't relevant to you.

Oh and re saying something is wrong vs saying it isn't for me. I don't think this living arrangement is wrong. But holding up as exemplary an arrangement in which the male id'd person has power and privilege by virtue of his gender -- yeah that's wrong. Was wrong, is wrong, will always be wrong.

One of the great things about living in this country and in this time is that I get to decide what's relevant to me and what isn't, but I appreciate what you say about giving away power. People do that every day. Sometimes people take power from others. Eleanor Roosevelt was a brilliant woman and said that no one could take it away from you if you didn't allow it, but there are an awful lot of ways to take power from someone and dismissing one's way of life is one of them.

I hear you regarding the power inequality and what it used to be, but is it that if both partners are equally investing in this lifestyle and if they bear equal weight from it?

[Gemme]

Shit. DammitalltoHell.

Sorry about the derail again.

Martina, if you'd like to continue to debate with me, I'm okay with that through pms.

If not, then maybe the thread can get back on topic.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by Gemme

[B][SIZE="3"][COLOR="yellowgreen"]

Okay. I can give you that. I see that. The literal versus figurative analogy. A lot of wires can get crossed when different sides are coming from difference perspectives and I totally get this.

BUT

My panties get into an absolute snarl when it feels like someone is saying 'you are wrong' instead of 'that isn't for me and this is why'. The 'daydreaming' comment feels dismissive to me, like someone's ideal isn't "real enough" for someone else who is not involved in their life at all and not affected by their life choices at all.

Why can't that role be someone's REAL world? Why must the weight of history rest on the shoulders of some girl or guy who just wants to make their partner fucking dinner and do it in an apron and maybe in heels and probably with some rouge on?

The daydreaming remark wasn't meant to be dismissive. It was meant to be what it is...daydreaming. If we are going to debate whether or not most of us could go back to the 1950s and live as we live today or actually, how it has been represented, actually live a better, more mannerly, more pleasant life or however anyone wants to spin it, i truly do challenge that.

It's the romanticizing and the thought that things were better for everyone back then, attitude that gets MY panties into an absolute snarl.

I don't think anyone here cares how anyone lives their lives or has a relationship. That is not what this discussion is about, as far as i see. What ruffles some of us is the notion that "then" was better. It wasn't. At least it wasn't for women, minorities and especially not better for gays.

This has nothing to do with whether someone chooses to work or not, or wear an apron or whatever. FAR from it. It is about logistics, where we are now and where we came from and where MANY of us never want to go back to.

[BullDog]

Gemme, no one has told you how to have a relationship.

No one.

It is very dangerous to white wash history. We are about to have a Presidential election where our rights could take us back to the 1950s and earlier. I am never going to ignore any of that. I didn't take issue with anyone's relationship. What I have issue with is white washing history.

And if people want to make male the superior in their relationship they can, but if people are going to tie that to some wonderful mystical past when things were so much better I will challenge that. And I will continue to challenge male being superior as the default in society.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme, no one has told you how to have a relationship.

No one.

It is very dangerous to white wash history. We are about to have a Presidential election where our rights could take us back to the 1950s and earlier. I am never going to ignore any of that. I didn't take issue with anyone's relationship. What I have issue with is white washing history.

And if people want to make male the superior in their relationship they can, but if people are going to tie that to some wonderful mystical past when things were so much better I will challenge that. And I will continue to challenge male being superior as the default in society.

PMing you as well.