FTM place to vent and talk

[Hominid]

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Woah woah woah!!!

wtf??? I get we all have some pretty hard experiences in AND out of our own community and it needs to be talked about, but all the lesbian and butch bashing in this thread is gonna get moderated and then we will have no space to talk things out..

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Hominid

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

We do need to self-police. We need to recognize the experiences but rather than navel gaze them to death figure out how to prevent those same experiences from happening to those starting their experience. Not all FTMs come from a lesbian/F&B background. This community has been a supporter of trans individuals and even banned one of the most known transphobic individuals out there.

But I find that kind of person is rarer in this community than common. It sucks that this has happened to some of us (I had my share but not enough to be so vehement about it). I cannot change those individuals but I can be part of this community and let them see me for the man I am rather than what might be assumed about me.

Originally Posted by Greyson

I agree with Linus and weatherboi about context. Most of the guys who have been here awhile know I I.D. as Transmasculine. Being a life long Butch was very much a part of my journey getting to this point in my gender identity.

For me, once I started the process of transitioning I could no longer ignore that little voice in me that kept asking "Why?" I never identified as a "Woman Identified Butch." In my old thinking a Butch was clearly not a woman in the same sense as Femmes and other women.

I have been a member of the Butch-Femme sites for 12 or 13 years now. I have learned that not all Butches had the same experience or thinking that I did. That also is the same for Transmen. I have been legally a male for a little over three years now and my gender identity is not over.

Back to the "Why" of this. In finally deciding to "transition" for me I had to explore if there was self internalized misoginy involved in my decision. Honestly I did not think there was. I tried to take a hard and focused look as to what growing up in my country has taught me. What is the media, books, movies, "values," traditions, law, policy, religion saying now and historically about women? IMO it is saying, overall that women are meant to be in service to the greater good, sacrafice self if necessary, and raise families. I think women overall through out history were relegated to very pre-defined lives.

What I ultimately had to ask myself is how much of this stuff did I believe on some level? How did my actions, thoughts, biases, and words align with what I thought I believed?

Agreed on this. It's one of the reasons I started a thread on the idea about whether transman who transition are self-misogynistic. I know in some way I am in that I dislike my personal woman bits but that's my dysphoria/GID speaking rather than a hatred of women. Like you, I had to question whether there was more to it than just that. I refuse to be like cis-men and do not want to be compared to them. I am my own man and so much more than that.

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

Let me understand this cause I am NOT out to hurt anyone's feelings or cast aspersions....<walking on eggshells is SO much fun>....

Thing is, I don't believe we need to walk on egg shells. I've said it already and I'll say it again. Because this thread was "born" out of another discussion that was already hugely heated it's being watched like a hawk more so. In fact, IMO, there is a higher expectation on transmen than others because of what some would believe our experience to be (never mind that we all have very differing backgrounds from that of a living a straight female life to those living lesbian and those living femme).

It's unfortunate that transmen do face some of this kind of discrimination or animosity from other parts of the LGBTQ community (gay transmen that I know have commented how the gay community doesn't quite accept them either and neither do the straight men they may have dated in the past). But I'd like to believe that in this community of people the majority are supportive (we have over 4,000 and I've probably interacted with about 600 of that so I can't comment either way for the remaining but I'd like to believe they are just as supportive).

So rather than dwell on those who won't support us or what out right hate us, I'd rather hang out and get to know those will support us and like us. Will we ever be able to stop anyone from not liking us because we're transmen? No. There will always be those that dislike us because of who are. But I always try to make sure that it's not because of what I personally do or say (that doesn't mean toeing some line or walking on eggshells -- it just means being aware of the fact that there is more to the world than just me).


To that end, one of my biggest challenges is being seen as a man and not in the same light as a cis-gendered man. I likely don't have the same experience in my life as many cis-gendered men do. And the way people treated me in my female life before effected that experience. I often wonder how different I would be had I started my transition when I was in my 20s compared to doing it now in my early 40s. Already I feel like I've lived two lives, almost like a reincarnation (maybe that's what is meant by reincarnation).

[weatherboi]

It is totally not cool to refer to butches as envious when it is only a guess about a group of peoples character. It is divisive at best with an air of insecurity on the part of the accuser. Self inflicted. Qualifiers don't give us a pass to say whatever we want to. If you read back to that post Darbonaire made, he was merely taking a side swiping guess about the envy. Shit stirring verbiage and he even admitted to it. I think he even insinuated that he didn't care. All this stuff is way overkill to describe an experience.

I am all for talking about trans invisibility. I feel a certain responsibility to remain visible within my community and out amoungst the masses. Here in Jacksonville just like everywhere else we are a minority within a minority. I watched the LGB part of our community use gender expression and identity as the bargaining chip to try and gain rights, so they took us out of the original bill under the list of people protected. 2012-296 was the bill and tried to push it forward.
I will never forget the day I read the addendum to the original bill. 2 reasons it felt shitty for me and silencing resulting in my own feelings of invisibility. The first was my clear lack of investment and support for my own rights. Secondly was how very clear to me that a certain aspect of my community that was willing to bargain with my rights because of my lack of involvement and their lack of education when advocating for me as an organization. The attitude was at all costs, some is better than nothing, and that they (HRC) would build on it.

I also experience trans invisibility within my own subculture of trans. I have guys that refer to me as butch because of their own shit. Recently we hosted a small dinner party and one of the transmen that attended kept referring to me as a butch. The dinner requires protocols so I had to navigate a conversation around antiquated beliefs revolved around creating hierarchy within the trans community. It worked for me in that situation. In other situations with less restrictions I tend to grab that kind of thinking and break it down to roadkill. This kind of internal transphobia pisses me off more than any other discriminatory experience I have been privy to. I don't like discourse from within but I am not afraid of confronting it and examining it. IMO it is the first place we should be starting.

Originally Posted by Hominid

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

It is totally not cool to refer to butches as envious when it is only a guess about a group of peoples character. It is divisive at best with an air of insecurity on the part of the accuser. Self inflicted. Qualifiers don't give us a pass to say whatever we want to. If you read back to that post Darbonaire made, he was merely taking a side swiping guess about the envy. Shit stirring verbiage and he even admitted to it. I think he even insinuated that he didn't care. All this stuff is way overkill to describe an experience.
.

It IS cool if it's how it seems, and if the person posting says that's how it seems to him with *some* butches - which is, I believe the case. It's perfectly legitimate to discuss whether that perception is correct.

In MY case, and MY case alone, the four butches I have known well enough to process with have TOLD me that PART of their issue was jealousy - and through further processing of the kind discussed a little earlier (reflecting on whether the desire to transition was some form of misogyny) they came to a different place than I did. I was told by these friends that my transitioning forced them to consider that they could be male if they wanted, and part of that process for them was feeling that it would be too difficult, too hard to deal with in their lives, and this made them angry and jealous - for a period of time. Of course, it was one small part of their own process, but it did exist, and important for us to discuss because it came between us. I do NOT feel that all butches go through this or feel this way - nor do I even have an opinion on how many might - I only know it CAN be so - and is usually transient.

That said, there are times when PARTS of me hearken for the simpler days of being a young, hot butch and be admired by the community.

[Greyson]

Hominid, I believe you. These sort of things can and do happen to many of us. For me, I internalized so much of this sort of thing. It hurt deeply and it made me much more angry, isolated emotionally, judgmental and fearful. Now where do go with all of this stuff trapped internally? The "others" that hurt me went on and lived their lives. (BTW, I am not talking about exes. I am talking about the isms.) I did a lot of chest thumping like Brutal because I was not sure of myself.

I am not saying this is part of your character, how you tick. I am saying some of us are and some us of may be. Again, without even realizing it.

Originally Posted by Hominid

It IS cool if it's how it seems, and if the person posting says that's how it seems to him with *some* butches - which is, I believe the case. It's perfectly legitimate to discuss whether that perception is correct.

In MY case, and MY case alone, the four butches I have known well enough to process with have TOLD me that PART of their issue was jealousy - and through further processing of the kind discussed a little earlier (reflecting on whether the desire to transition was some form of misogyny) they came to a different place than I did. I was told by these friends that my transitioning forced them to consider that they could be male if they wanted, and part of that process for them was feeling that it would be too difficult, too hard to deal with in their lives, and this made them angry and jealous - for a period of time. Of course, it was one small part of their own process, but it did exist, and important for us to discuss because it came between us. I do NOT feel that all butches go through this or feel this way - nor do I even have an opinion on how many might - I only know it CAN be so - and is usually transient.

That said, there are times when PARTS of me hearken for the simpler days of being a young, hot butch and be admired by the community.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Hominid, I believe you. These sort of things can and do happen to many of us. For me, I internalized so much of this sort of thing. It hurt deeply and it made me much more angry, isolated emotionally, judgmental and fearful. Now where do go with all of this stuff trapped internally? The "others" that hurt me went on and lived their lives. (BTW, I am not talking about exes. I am talking about the isms.) I did a lot of chest thumping like Brutal because I was not sure of myself.

I am not saying this is part of your character, how you tick. I am saying some of us are and some us of may be. Again, without even realizing it.

I'm sorry Greyson - I completely lost you ... chalk it up to the hurricane? I do not feel offended at all. I value open communication and what people INTEND more than anything at all. Do you mind sharing what sort of thing you internalized? And what "this" you are not saying is part of my character?
I feel like I'm missing something you are trying to communicate that is very important -

[Greyson]

Hi Hominid. Sorry I have really been burning up the keyboard today and maybe I am just feeling too much to be articulate. What I am trying to say is I believe you that there were butch pals that felt jealous. Not all butches are Trans but most butches, I think have been forced to ponder gender. Most butches are gender outlaws. We/they do not fit the "norm."

So, butches, FTMs, others all of us can say and do hurtful things to our own community. Then, how does that make you feel? Do you feel hurt? Does your hurt turn into anger? Can you let it roll off your back or does it stick in you somewhere? It stuck for me, for years. What I have learned is that my hurt, fear festered. It did not stop the lives of the people who judged me, treated me with disregard. They moved on. I was stuck then I felt even more isolated and angry. This did not serve me.The one I was hurting and frustrating the most was myself. Sometimes I overcompensated in ways that gave credence to negative stereotypes.

My question, have you ever had similar feelings and responses? I am not asking you this in an acusatory way. My hope is that all of us participating in this thread can move forward, find some affirmation for who we are, and find some understanding for those who may not always agree with us, collectively.

Clear as mud. I know.

Originally Posted by Hominid

I'm sorry Greyson - I completely lost you ... chalk it up to the hurricane? I do not feel offended at all. I value open communication and what people INTEND more than anything at all. Do you mind sharing what sort of thing you internalized? And what "this" you are not saying is part of my character?
I feel like I'm missing something you are trying to communicate that is very important -

[Hominid]

Greyson -

That was very clear, thank you. And please, don't walk on eggshells with me. Of course others are reading, but you owe ME no explanations or apologies.

Ah, I see now. I felt hurt and humiliated - like the entire town was judging me - for about six months. It was hard at work, my closest friend and I didn't communicate much. I attribute that as much to appearing gender-neutral, being extremely self-conscious and feeling that everyone was talking about me (which they most likely were). I was scared for my kids and nervous around my neighbors. I felt like a freak to straight people and a source of shame and judgment to lesbians.

I worked a lot, which was equally hard, patients would ask other staff after I left the room whether I was male or female. But I got more support there than elsewhere. Sometime, somehow - I saw "me" in the mirror, and my validation came from strangers taking me for who I was; not some complex statement on what gender and sexuality means - and I was really aware of straight people who knew, or who found out, immediately thinking about my genitals.

Now, with time - and this is all in retrospect obviously, I think it has helped a lot that the scales have tipped. More people don't know than do. With those I know know, it is rarely a topic. I keep pictures up of me pre-transition - not lots, but I'm not taking down a meaningful picture. Besides, I was cute. I have pictures of my graduation with my late father, my mom's favorite picture of me as a little girl, and pictures of me with my daughter when she was born.

I guess that's way off topic. But .. in answer to your question, I didn't carry much anger. I had frustration with my closest friend. I felt a lot of shame which was corrected when the transition was "complete" for me. However, I didn't have a large community either. I was married with two small kids - the bulk of my social life was soccer games. I left it to my then-wife to tell people, which now I realize was a mistake that retarded my own ability to deal with having done it. Anyway, being buried in a family at the time meant I didn't have to move about in the world alone, I had the roles of father and husband to insulate me, so I was very fortunate.

Thank you for clarifying - I felt like I missed a post or something!