FTM place to vent and talk

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

which is why I'm back on this site....cause it WILL be "easier" if the woman understands about us. I just find myself in a group of freinds that I love & enjoy & they happen to be straight so......when in Rome....LOL......anyway, it's just something I'm kicking around. Like I said..i am SO not ready yet......have a ways to go to heal yet. I wouldn't do that to ANY woman straight or lesbian.

I get what you're saying. All of our friends are straight as well. Comes with territory of area we live in but also the gay folks that do live near there really won't have anything to do with us because of the whole FTM/femme status. I guess they think we're "traitors" to our own kind? Lol. Whatever their deal is, we don't worry about it and actually love our straight friends. Only one of them (Julie's best friend) really gets it I think. The rest just kinda get that glazed over look in their eyes then pretend they never heard any of it. Go figure.

When you're ready, you'll know.


Brute.

[Hominid]

I've actually gotten the most flak from vanilla lesbians and butch lesbians - after some conversation, at least with one who was a true enough friend to have it, and with others over time, there was an element of threat/jealousy/something. One friend told me that she wishes she could transition - and I can see it. She's thrilled when someone sees her as male. I can remember, pre-transition, thinking ftms were weak - that it took more strength to be female and masculine, and that I was more masculine as a butch than 99% of the men I knew. Over time (with butches), I tried to recognize their masculinity, and make clear that my male-ness was NOT masculinity in and of itself. Now, they don't "see" me, so it's not an issue in that way. It IS an issue as far as meeting others in the community (another friend and I have compared my position with femme invisibility).

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

I get what you're saying. All of our friends are straight as well. Comes with territory of area we live in but also the gay folks that do live near there really won't have anything to do with us because of the whole FTM/femme status. I guess they think we're "traitors" to our own kind? Lol. Whatever their deal is, we don't worry about it and actually love our straight friends. Only one of them (Julie's best friend) really gets it I think. The rest just kinda get that glazed over look in their eyes then pretend they never heard any of it. Go figure.

When you're ready, you'll know.


Brute.

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hominid

I've actually gotten the most flak from vanilla lesbians and butch lesbians - after some conversation, at least with one who was a true enough friend to have it, and with others over time, there was an element of threat/jealousy/something. One friend told me that she wishes she could transition - and I can see it. She's thrilled when someone sees her as male. I can remember, pre-transition, thinking ftms were weak - that it took more strength to be female and masculine, and that I was more masculine as a butch than 99% of the men I knew. Over time (with butches), I tried to recognize their masculinity, and make clear that my male-ness was NOT masculinity in and of itself. Now, they don't "see" me, so it's not an issue in that way. It IS an issue as far as meeting others in the community (another friend and I have compared my position with femme invisibility).

Exactly! Julie and I have actually talked about how she goes through femme invisibility and I go through FTM invisibility, both in straight and rainbow world. Maybe that's why I feel I would be way more comfortable with a femme if I were single, versus a straight woman. I've never met a straight woman who suffers from feeling invisible with her own idenity but I've met plenty of femmes who have. It's that tangible common ground/connection that makes the relationship/friendship/whatever it is that much more bonded. That understanding of what the other must go through.

You know I've tried really hard to understand what the issue folks from our own world have against us (her and I) but I can not figure it out. Finally got to a point where I don't care, for the most part. Won't lie, still gets to me sometimes because it really would be nice to be around "family" face to face but that'll happen come September at the Reunion! Not only get to put faces with the names of folks we've talked to for years but also get to soak up the real life experience of being "home", so to speak.

[weatherboi]

In my past I found some of my fears and apprehension and some apprehension my friends felt over my trans status may have caused some angst but for the most part I think all my butch friends and lesbian friends are very supportive and interested in my life here and in everyday. I have never felt like I am in competition with people over my gender and I don't think they have ever felt this way with me.

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

In my past I found some of my fears and apprehension and some apprehension my friends felt over my trans status may have caused some angst but for the most part I think all my butch friends and lesbian friends are very supportive and interested in my life here and in everyday. I have never felt like I am in competition with people over my gender and I don't think they have ever felt this way with me.

I'm glad you've got friends who are supportive. Wish I could say same for her and I. Unfortunately we've gotten shitted on quite a bit over the years but it's their issue, not ours.

I still remember our first date. Took her to a local gay club/bar and soon as we walked in the door, you could've heard a pin drop. Also if looks could wither, we'd crumpled to the floor. Lol.

Funny thing is, I've met some butches who were just fine with us until they found out that I was FTM. Then came the stares, the sneers, the eyerolling. Don't even think it's a competition thing at all with them because I'm very content with who I am and also very content with who they are and how they identify. It's literally an issue of being "traitors" because I want to be a man (even though it's not a "want" but something that just is) which is the easier, softer way for them. No matter the fact that it's the harder path for me to take since now I have to deal judgement from society AND the rainbow.

[DMW]

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

I'm glad you've got friends who are supportive. Wish I could say same for her and I. Unfortunately we've gotten shitted on quite a bit over the years but it's their issue, not ours.

I still remember our first date. Took her to a local gay club/bar and soon as we walked in the door, you could've heard a pin drop. Also if looks could wither, we'd crumpled to the floor. Lol.

Funny thing is, I've met some butches who were just fine with us until they found out that I was FTM. Then came the stares, the sneers, the eyerolling. Don't even think it's a competition thing at all with them because I'm very content with who I am and also very content with who they are and how they identify. It's literally an issue of being "traitors" because I want to be a man (even though it's not a "want" but something that just is) which is the easier, softer way for them. No matter the fact that it's the harder path for me to take since now I have to deal judgement from society AND the rainbow.

Brute, damn it is nice to read your post and let you speak for me. My head
is still pounding...whiney dude today. I think it is so important to put myself in another persons' shoes...emotionally...to really try and understand what could be going on inside their heads. And listen...if they will talk about it. I can understand the "traitor" feeling ...why the people in the rainbow would feel this way. I am actually struggling right now cause i find myself going back and forth now that i have come into this site...and not just because of the site...i have always struggled with this..."damn the straight society and i shall not be silent" and then the idea of
ugh...just let me live ok. That is really my issue. I have struggled with what i feel is a need to be OUT as a transman in order to LIVE as a transman.

As far as your invisible femme...i was in more than one relationship where
the poor femmes always kinda get the shaft. The best thing i could do for her was to tell her..."look, i respect and like so and so. So, i don't mind that
you come out to her if you need someone to talk to about US with a friend.
I think that is so important. And it really puts them at ease. I only asked of her...to let me OK who i would allow to know about me and US.

And i really need to learn how to clean up the format of my posts...

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by DMW

Brute, damn it is nice to read your post and let you speak for me. My head
is still pounding...whiney dude today. I think it is so important to put myself in another persons' shoes...emotionally...to really try and understand what could be going on inside their heads. And listen...if they will talk about it. I can understand the "traitor" feeling ...why the people in the rainbow would feel this way. I am actually struggling right now cause i find myself going back and forth now that i have come into this site...and not just because of the site...i have always struggled with this..."damn the straight society and i shall not be silent" and then the idea of
ugh...just let me live ok. That is really my issue. I have struggled with what i feel is a need to be OUT as a transman in order to LIVE as a transman.

As far as your invisible femme...i was in more than one relationship where
the poor femmes always kinda get the shaft. The best thing i could do for her was to tell her...look...i respect and like so and so..So, i don't mind that
you come out to her if you need someone to talk to about US with a friend.
I think that is so important. I only asked of her...to let me OK who i would allow to know about me and US.

Wow. Love it when someone takes the jumbled up thoughts in my head and lay them out clearly so I can do the same in my own mind. I struggle with that too, DMW. The desire to be seen as queer, kinda like my own "fuck you" to society, and the desire to be seen fully as a male. Sometimes I wonder can I have my cake and eat it too? I have struggled with the traitor thing because my journey, my past is not something I ever want to let go of or forget because it is just an intricate part of me. Being a part of this community/rainbow is something I hold dear to my heart because I have much, much stronger connection with it then I do with the straight world.

I'm lucky in the sense that Julie gets me and the situation. I do feel bad that because I am FTM, there will always be shit thrown from both sides of the aisle and she'll be stuck in the middle of it. But that is her choice so feeling bad about it is on me, not her. She knows the ramifications of what being with a FTM will be and yet because of her strong sense of self and her desire for me to be completely okay with myself, she'll take the shit throwing. I can only imagine how much more invisible being with a FTM makes her, especially when I am able to fully transition. Thing is being with me isn't what makes her femme. It's just who she is. Unfortunately some folks will never see it that way.

[weatherboi]

I have experienced certain friends viewing me as a traitor. People are gonna either work it out in themselves or not I guess. Mostly my supportive people are here and then I have a few constants that love me no matterwhat. I am lucky when I look at it that way. Gay clubs can be so rough sometimes and can feel very unwelcoming to people that don't don a bar stool night after night. I am sorry ya'll had to deal with that.

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

I'm glad you've got friends who are supportive. Wish I could say same for her and I. Unfortunately we've gotten shitted on quite a bit over the years but it's their issue, not ours.

I still remember our first date. Took her to a local gay club/bar and soon as we walked in the door, you could've heard a pin drop. Also if looks could wither, we'd crumpled to the floor. Lol.

Funny thing is, I've met some butches who were just fine with us until they found out that I was FTM. Then came the stares, the sneers, the eyerolling. Don't even think it's a competition thing at all with them because I'm very content with who I am and also very content with who they are and how they identify. It's literally an issue of being "traitors" because I want to be a man (even though it's not a "want" but something that just is) which is the easier, softer way for them. No matter the fact that it's the harder path for me to take since now I have to deal judgement from society AND the rainbow.

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I have experienced certain friends viewing me as a traitor. People are gonna either work it out in themselves or not I guess. Mostly my supportive people are here and then I have a few constants that love me no matterwhat. I am lucky when I look at it that way. Gay clubs can be so rough sometimes and can feel very unwelcoming to people that don't don a bar stool night after night. I am sorry ya'll had to deal with that.

Yea, I've figured out over the years how tough it is going into a gay club as a brand new face. In a sense I can understand the initial mistrust because we do have to be so very careful with who we allow in so as not to get hurt or fucked with. Yet on the flip side of the coin, so many folks just coming out feel like they're twisting in the wind and just want to feel like they belong somewhere.

Thank you for the condolence. It sucks but it's life as well. Again, huge reason I am so glad this site is here for us. Kinda like our own Cheers, where everybody knows our name. Lol.

Just Don't Call Me Norm,
Brute.

[Julien]

I want to address this traitor issue. This is one of the reasons I'm hesitant to out myself with this new group of people (MCC), because I do not know what their response might be. However, I think that it might have to do with me in general and some misconception I may have. I also see the response some of you have gone through, so I know this is out there. It seems that life is tough enough for those of us who are trans than to have be judged by our own LGB community. I would also like to say that I find people on this site more welcoming and accepting of us, which is why I come here.

[DMW]

Julien, i have found that whether someone is gay or straight, how they treat me, really isn't the issue for me. For me it is about being who i am. I understand the fear...but, i try not to let that rule how i live or the choices that i make based on what i need. I read your post and it worries me for you actually. No matter where i am ...(gay or straight world)... i am trans and base my decisions on when and where and to whom i should "out "myself to....dependent on the given situation.

What is the MCC group?

I hope you come back soon because i may have to leave without hearing your answer and then you will have to wait for a reply from me.

Brute, love what you shared.

I gotta check out again. Have a good night all.

[Hominid]

Julien -

I just wanted to say that the stuff I did run up against was very subtle, and not in a community or group. I guess what I mean is that if you out yourself in the MCC, I am positive you will actually find people who gravitate *towards* you - being genuine almost always brings people closer, if in a safe environment. Yes, others may distance themselves a bit, but I think you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I say, go for it.

Originally Posted by Julien

I want to address this traitor issue. This is one of the reasons I'm hesitant to out myself with this new group of people (MCC), because I do not know what their response might be. However, I think that it might have to do with me in general and some misconception I may have. I also see the response some of you have gone through, so I know this is out there. It seems that life is tough enough for those of us who are trans than to have be judged by our own LGB community. I would also like to say that I find people on this site more welcoming and accepting of us, which is why I come here.

[Darbonaire]

I know how this shit feels from the lesbian community...not ALL of the community but a large part of it...in my experience anyway.

I don't give a rat's ass how someone identifies....that's their deal....but, because I aligned my body with my heart & soul, does NOT mean I am a traitor to the lesbian community...I never WAS a lesbian...THEY perceived me that way so that's on them. Yep, we've all heard the...."Well, if you want to be a guy....." shit. The butches that don't get it the feminists that don't get it. I think it's GREAT that they are comfortabe being masculine in their female bodies....excellent...for them. It was NOT for me & never has been.

The LBGT community is discriminated against by society & why the fu*k there's such "in-fighting" amongst these groups I've never understood. People are afraid of what they don't understand. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

Anyway, somewhere out there is another mate for me who will encompass ALL the wonderful qualities of my ex-wife, & be even more of a match for me. When I'm ready.......

[weatherboi]

Woah woah woah!!!

wtf??? I get we all have some pretty hard experiences in AND out of our own community and it needs to be talked about, but all the lesbian and butch bashing in this thread is gonna get moderated and then we will have no space to talk things out. Plus I really like my community members and respect them for their journey which I can only imagine is just as challenging as any one of ours. I am sure it isn't easy walking in this world as a butch person either so let's be bigger than we already are and figure out a way to talk about things without bashing our community members here or elsewhere.

I am not sure why you would think butches would be envious of us. I can't imagine any person wanting to walk in our shoes for all we have to go through. I think it would be important to point out that if somebody says to anyone of us "well if you wanna be a man" that this person is coming from an ignorant space and not a butch or lesbian space.

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

I know how this shit feels from the lesbian community...not ALL of the community but a large part of it...in my experience anyway.

I don't give a rat's ass how someone identifies....that's their deal....but, because I aligned my body with my heart & soul, does NOT mean I am a traitor to the lesbian community...I never WAS a lesbian...THEY perceived me that way so that's on them. Yep, we've all heard the...."Well, if you want to be a guy....." shit. The butches that don't get it the feminists that don't get it. I think it's GREAT that they are comfortabe being masculine in their female bodies....excellent...for them. It was NOT for me & never has been.

The LBGT community is discriminated against by society & why the fu*k there's such "in-fighting" amongst these groups I've never understood. People are afraid of what they don't understand. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

Anyway, somewhere out there is another mate for me who will encompass ALL the wonderful qualities of my ex-wife, & be even more of a match for me. When I'm ready.......

[Hominid]

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Woah woah woah!!!

wtf??? I get we all have some pretty hard experiences in AND out of our own community and it needs to be talked about, but all the lesbian and butch bashing in this thread is gonna get moderated and then we will have no space to talk things out..

[DMW]

Julien, Hominid's last post quotes the post of yours that i was refering to in my last post. Keep that straight. Lol...and my last post came up just as your last post did. I think what Hominid said is some good advice. I believe that also. There will be someone in that group that is chill..and who knows...there may be new members to come. In my experience, i kinda pick and choose who i will open up to. But, sometimes that takes more time and patience. It can be annoying and exhausting. I am also, way hesitant with what i share with people, myself. It sounds like it is a new setting...I think staying positive and showing up to the meetings regularly is a good start.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

I know how this shit feels from the lesbian community...not ALL of the community but a large part of it...in my experience anyway.

I don't give a rat's ass how someone identifies....that's their deal....but, because I aligned my body with my heart & soul, does NOT mean I am a traitor to the lesbian community...I never WAS a lesbian...THEY perceived me that way so that's on them. Yep, we've all heard the...."Well, if you want to be a guy....." shit. The butches that don't get it the feminists that don't get it. I think it's GREAT that they are comfortabe being masculine in their female bodies....excellent...for them. It was NOT for me & never has been.

The LBGT community is discriminated against by society & why the fu*k there's such "in-fighting" amongst these groups I've never understood. People are afraid of what they don't understand. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

Anyway, somewhere out there is another mate for me who will encompass ALL the wonderful qualities of my ex-wife, & be even more of a match for me. When I'm ready.......

I have to agree with weatherboi on this one. Regardless of one's experience we cannot paint that brush against the whole of a group (largely because there is no way we've met everyone). That's no different than someone assuming we're all assholes because of one or more FTMs acting like assholes. Guilt by association is the wrong attitude, IMO, to take towards this. Rather than rant about what happened and do a "who is me, how horrible things were", why not rise above it and go beyond?

I think we sometimes forget the fine line that we have when discussing experiences versus making it sound like hatred or an -ism. By virtue of being male, some of how we describe our experience may come out as an -ism (whether intentional or not).

I think we have to speak entirely for ourselves and not for what others may or may not feel (that is, speak from the *I* place and not "them", "they", etc.). I cannot speak for nor would I attempt to speak for those who support me or are against me. Have I felt that kind of hatred? Yes. There are some who are like that. Is it the majority of who exists out there? No. Because I haven't met them all, only a small subset. But I wouldn't assume that everyone I've met is part of that subset either until they show me they are.

Your experience is important, Dabonaire. It has added to who you are but how we express that experience can either paint a whole group one way or another.

[Linus]

And just so that people realize this: the creation of this thread has made it one of the most watched thread by not just FTMs but others. This isn't a private thread.

Remember that when posting.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

.

scratches you off the list of Ftm's I want to support.
To say something like this figuring you will get shit
but saying it anyway is way off base and
speaks to your self esteem issues not mine or anyone else's.

No envy here.
This is where the line in the sand gets drawn , for me.
Completely content being the butch that I am.
Crap talk like this does nothing to foster allies or friendships.

[DMW]

Brute, i didn't even see that you were included in that also. Completely missed the word "I" in the her and I....geezle. Maybe time to go to the eye dr. Could be why i am getting these HA. I think you said that you are in a new area.That makes it thing difficult for awhile too. Transitioning and moving to a new area can be really trying. The two of you have each other and that is awesome. And i now realize that your femme was the femme that understood so well from the other thread...Good for you two! I am lovin' that realization. And it makes me smile.
I gotta go to work now...

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

I'm glad you've got friends who are supportive. Wish I could say same for her and I.