only another butch would understand

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by BullDog

However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine - how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine - how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

It's not my fault that I'm white, but I certainly have a responsibility to be aware of how my presence as a white person impacts the people around me.

I am butch. Masculine is much more valued than feminine- both in society and in butch femme circles. I didn't ask it to be that way, but I still feel it's my responsibility to be aware of that, to speak up, and to be a strong ally to femmes. Not only because I love femmes but also because of this inequity that exists. I have an extra responsibility because of it. I don't go around crying it's not my fault. I have done my best over the years and will continue to do so.

It mystifies me that male identified people are saying they don't have a responsibility to be aware of their surroundings and how being male identified can impact others, particularly when they are in a community of primarily female people. I am absolutely mystified. Taking personal responsibility and being aware of how your presence and participation in a community may impact others- it certainly appears to be a dying and lost art.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Between "her and me" are the keywords here, I hope you can differentiate that and not "feel like you have to walk a tight rope around female identified butches". Painting ALL of a group with the words of one person just doesn't work for me, but pretty much gives the in to respond to that

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine- how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

I'm just going to briefly address this equating or switching out of the words "male" with masculine and "female" with feminine mid thought. Male does not mean more masculine and doesn't in any way is a guarantee of a more masculine essence/energy/presentation etc. than a female ID may carry (or vice versa for that matter the maleID that may carry feminine energy). It's all pretty relative... but we all have a responsibility to not perpetuate these type of concrete stereotyping of different types of butch IDs.

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

I know you asked to keep this between her and you, but when you make generalizations about various IDs you pretty much invite all comers. I'm not really interested in debate on this but really more attempting to prevent leaving these types things out there unchallenged as if they have validity.



Metro