only another butch would understand

[Toughy]

Me in this color

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I don’t think it’s unreasonable either. I did take exception to some very specific language that felt exclusionary to me (whether by intent or not).

I’d like to note that BullDog initially recommended Tough Guise to all masculine individuals and suggested we all examine our masculinity. In subsequent posts by others, and yours here, the directive has been mysteriously pared down to focus more on those with male identity. The issue was presented as relevant to masculinity, not exclusively male identity. Then BullDog made the leap to male privilege. Unfortunately, marrying those two points as she did in her post has served to cloud the issue. I say “unfortunately” because I think each are worthy of further examination and dialog on their own.

Maybe the Tough Guise thread is the place for those discussions.

If we’re talking about masculinity and needing to examine it and how it plays out in online space, then there can be no exclusion from that responsibility for non-male id’ed butches, because to do so perpetuates the fallacy of a hierarchy (i.e., who has "more masculinity").

Actually I don't see it as a hierarchy. As I said earlier, I did leave out non male id'd folks. It was partially an oversight, but also pointed. I think that all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm for how men behave in general and in relation to women and to violence.

The conversation about male privilege and its relevance in this venue is one well worth having – as heated as it is likely to be.


I'm up for it.



When discussing male privilege you cannot lump male id’ed, non-transitioned (of the non-passing variety) individuals in with those who navigate the world at large as men. I know I wouldn’t be alone in enumerating the ways in which acknowledging my male, or even masculine, nature has never made anything “easier” for me. The very notion is absurd.

When talking about male privilege, don’t lump me in that pile because I have a preference for male pronouns in the very limited applications in my life where I can experience them. Accepting the assertion that I don’t have male privilege in real time, show me the ways in which it is viewed that male identified folks experience male privilege in an online space (outside of the aforementioned default male pronoun usage, which I have not personally experience).

Bottomline? I’m not trying to sell you what the patriarchy would have you buy. But, I reviewed the checklist – male privilege? I just don’t have it. I’m not in denial, I’m real. Further, I disbelieve transfolk can be saddled with it (other than as a veil, a veneer of privilege with serious limitations and exclusions). I do believe that a lot of what's being said here, however, sounds a lot like transphobia.

I would say this is a much larger conversation and this thread is probably not the thread.

Toughy, you said, “Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like.” I’m going to accept that as your acknowledgement – just as you say others need to acknowledge - that you have male privilege. I applaud you for being willing to be the first to take that step forward. It’s one I, too, would have taken if I understood what it feels like to personally experience male privilege.

I generally try to avoid being a hypocrite .......<grin>. I absolutely have male privilege when I am seen as man and let me tell ya.............geez......what an eye opener it was when I figured it out.......

Respectfully, I have no desire to negate your (collective) experiences online of erasure, or of not being seen (though I do think you are very much seen and heard). I don’t want to dismiss or discredit your feelings around these issues (I have argued alongside some of you in defense of female masculinity). I simply believe that placing the responsibility for that condition on the male privilege of certain types of butches is invalid assignment.

Nor am I interested in negating anyone's individual experience. See above concerning responsibility.

[julieisafemme]

I hope it is ok for to me post here as a femme. I am partnered with a transmasculine butch. It is painful to hear these conversations when people get so upset that they want to leave or stop talking. I can hear the frustration and understand where both Bull Dog and Dylan are coming from.

The experience of male privilege that I see my partner enjoy is very different from that of a cisgendered male. His perspective as a butch and starting life as a female bodied person informs how he receives the privilege. Cisgendered men, in my experience, do not dissect or consider these everyday interactions as privilege. I also don't experience his male privilege the same way as I did when partnered with a biomale. It's all kind of new and we talk about it a lot. So because of this experience it does upset me to hear transmen taken to task and lumped in with biomales. It's not the same to me.

We had the great good fortune this Fall to attend Butch Voices and Gender Odyssey. I was so pleased at how respectfully these difficult conversations were handled at Butch Voices. Bear Bergmann and Jeanne Cordova did a fantastic job in moderating these topics. At Gender Odyssey it was amazing to see the range of gender expression and how people choose to live that gender expression. As a partner I appreciated hearing from other partners, women and men, whose gender and sexual orientation were different than mine.

It is possible to have these conversations and have everyone feel heard. Maybe not in this medium though.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Toughy

<snip>
Actually I don't see it as a hierarchy. As I said earlier, I did leave out non male id'd folks. It was partially an oversight, but also pointed. I think that all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm for how men behave in general and in relation to women and to violence.

Thanks for clarifying, Toughy.

Sometimes these conversations are rough stuff and we get the red ass over things others say, but it's all a process toward working it out, or, as e said:

For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

And so I learned something in re-reading your words here, as I composed my reply.

You said (and it's been said here before a time or two)

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..."

I think we do have a responsibility, not necessarily to unpack our own backpack full of shit, but to lead by example. I believe we can demonstrate the better aspects of man/male, tempered with all that we've learned during our own discovery of self and growth.

Maybe at some point one of us will have the energy to start that thread. I know it's not going to be me tonight!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Thanks for clarifying, Toughy.

Sometimes these conversations are rough stuff and we get the red ass over things others say, but it's all a process toward working it out, or, as e said:

For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

And so I learned something in re-reading your words here, as I composed my reply.

You said (and it's been said here before a time or two)

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..."

I think we do have a responsibility, not necessarily to unpack our own backpack full of shit, but to lead by example. I believe we can demonstrate the better aspects of man/male, tempered with all that we've learned during our own discovery of self and growth.

Maybe at some point one of us will have the energy to start that thread. I know it's not going to be me tonight!

Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)

I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.

I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)

I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.

I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.

No, I got that part from the git go.

But now that we're maybe making some headway with this load, let's not rehash that. I think it's well possible that if we continue on with the male privilege discussion - in it's own thread, I'm thinking - that we'll trip over it, and work our way through it there.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

No, I got that part from the git go.

But now that we're maybe making some headway with this load, let's not rehash that. I think it's well possible that if we continue on with the male privilege discussion - in it's own thread, I'm thinking - that we'll trip over it, and work our way through it there.

OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.

To be continued...

Have a good night.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.

To be continued...

Have a good night.

I want to honor what this thread is supposed to be about.....the stuff we as butch understand about each other.....what is our common stuff..........

How about we take this hard stuff over to the Tough Guise thread? It seems to me that's where it really belongs.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I want to honor what this thread is supposed to be about.....the stuff we as butch understand about each other.....what is our common stuff..........

How about we take this hard stuff over to the Tough Guise thread? It seems to me that's where it really belongs.

Yep agreed. I will try to see if I have any thoughts on the video tomorrow. Will post over there if anyone is interested in further participating in that discussion. I would love to hear other's thoughts. I know it is very powerful and almost hard to put things into words.

[Cyclopea]

I understood "only another butch would understand" to mean a thread for support and bonding among butches regarding the issues and commonalities that only another butch could provide.
I did not understand it to mean "something ALL butches can understand or relate to". There is vast diversity among peeps who are butch. Age, class, education, gender, ethnicity, appearance, geography, life experience, etc. etc. I can't imagine a topic or concern that EVERY butch can understand or relate to. And why is that a bad thing?
I think a centralized thread for bonding and support that includes all types of butches does not dilute the thread's potential as a place to bond.

Someone earlier in the thread posted something about the pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed, and he sought support from other male-identified butches for that experience. Even though I am a butch woman, I enjoy reading and sharing the experiences of other types of butches, especially those seeking support, even if I DON'T understand them from my personal perspective. I can still empathize, and isn't that what butch-or any- bonding is all about?

One of the things that I get support around, and that only another butch would understand, is the experience of being a walking talking poster-child for "lesbianism" or "gay woman" among the general populace, 24/7, 365. And how that effects and impacts one's daily life, living - whether desiring to or not- as an ambassador of "gayness" among the public at large.
Now, I know full well this is something many butches go through. But NOT ALL, since butches are extremely diverse. I don't think that a topic set forth for butch bonding and support needs to be something universal among every butch that exists. We can all appreciate and learn from each other that way, and no one should be afraid to reach out for support and understanding out of fear that every single butch on the planet might not understand. And we should not hesitate to seek support for specifically butch concerns that might also be concerns of allies or those who do not id as butch. For example, hetero women who present visually as "butch", and others might also relate to the "gay billboard" experience I described above. Overlapping experiences should not prevent me seeking specific butch support as I see fit.

So I saw this thread as a positive place. If we need to start butch bonding threads specific to our particular type of butch, maybe that makes sense too, but I see nothing wrong with a centralized butch bonding thread.

And the "one star" rating makes me sad...

All the stuff around male privilege is very interesting but I'm not sure I see where peeps are asking for bonding and support around that? I don't at all discount that topic but I would like to see this thread get back to bonding and support for the things that only another butch can understand. Not criticizing! Just my preference and interpretation as to what this thread is intended to be...

It seems like many posts in this thread are specifically addressing the ways in which butches do NOT feel supported and understood by each other, and as valid as that conversation is it seems anathema to a thread created for butches to support and bond with each other. Good conversation, wrong thread.

My intentions for posting this are positive, and if someone wants to pick out a piece of something I said and point out how I could have stated it more clearly, that is fine. However if someone tries to turn my post into something ugly and negative and hateful- I will not respond.

Thank you for listening and thanks to all the butches who have posted, and allies.

[Cyclopea]

Bulldog and Toughy- you posted as I was composing mine and stated about getting back to the bonding- If I had seen your posts it would have saved me a lot of typing! Thanks for understanding.