"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Blue_Daddy-O]

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

[BullDog]

I personally haven't seen anyone object to anyone else not identifying as a lesbian. Are we speaking different languages? WTF

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I personally haven't seen anyone object to anyone else not identifying as a lesbian. Are we speaking different languages? WTF

this is such a good question. and i think the answer is both "yes and no". we're speaking exactly the same language. but our angst proves that the dictionary definition of words isnt the only way in which we understand words! you understand one thing and i understand another. it doesnt make either of us wrong, it simply means there's a learning curve to understanding one another's filters and perspectives with regard to language.

Cyclopea asked relevant questions and so did i. neither of us did the best job answering the other. i left the conversation feeling like i was being invalidated and definitely like the enemy. today, i still feel like the enemy. no one called me the enemy but it does not prevent me from feeling that way. i dont blame anyone for the way i feel. but that i was regarded as the enemy was made clear in more than one mind based on the PMs i've gotten. it wouldn surprise me to discover that those on the opposite side of the discussion feel invalidated as well.

one of the reasons people react so strongly is because they feel threatened. fortunately, here, we share the one thing that makes conversations like this possible: we all believe it's important is to remind one another that individual opinions dont necessarily mean that we think the other is wrong. it only means that we dont understand one another yet.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

You talk about us here and how much you love us and then state that we are selfish and ridiculous for taking offense at non-lesbians who express their dislike of the words we use to describe ourselves. That seems to dilute the whole "love" message. In fact it seems wildly disrespectful and dismissive- not loving at all.
You conclude that we are Changing and Evolving. What exactly do you mean by that?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

You talk about us here and how much you love us and then state that we are selfish and ridiculous for taking offense at non-lesbians who express their dislike of the words we use to describe ourselves. That seems to dilute the whole "love" message. In fact it seems wildly disrespectful and dismissive- not loving at all.
You conclude that we are Changing and Evolving. What exactly do you mean by that?

<tongue=in cheek>

Think of it in the ways that computers evolve and change. For example, my first computer, which I bought back in the early 90's, was a 486/SX with (get ready for it) 16mb of RAM and a 126mb hard drive! Now, if I still had that machine I'm sure it would probably boot up but it wouldn't really be useful and no sane person would want one other than as a museum piece. There's nothing *wrong* with the 486/SX. It had its time and is an interesting piece of history but anyone who thinks it is still a truly useful piece of technology is hopelessly antiquarian and perhaps should be put out to technological pasture lest they mess things up for the rest of us. If one is still using a 486/SX one should, at minimum, have the common decency to be embarrassed about it.

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

<tongue=in cheek>

Think of it in the ways that computers evolve and change. For example, my first computer, which I bought back in the early 90's, was a 486/SX with (get ready for it) 16mb of RAM and a 126mb hard drive! Now, if I still had that machine I'm sure it would probably boot up but it wouldn't really be useful and no sane person would want one other than as a museum piece. There's nothing *wrong* with the 486/SX. It had its time and is an interesting piece of history but anyone who thinks it is still a truly useful piece of technology is hopelessly antiquarian and perhaps should be put out to technological pasture lest they mess things up for the rest of us. If one is still using a 486/SX one should, at minimum, have the common decency to be embarrassed about it.

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj

LMAO!!!
Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy?

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

LMAO!!!
Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy?

gives a whole new meaning to the concept of being "computer literate"!

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea
LMAO!!!
Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy?

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

gives a whole new meaning to the concept of being "computer literate"!

The way I see it, I would opt for the 486 - the Mac might be "too fast" for it's own good.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

LMAO!!!
Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy?

If you give me week or so, I'm sure I can write an AppleScript so that you can use it as a remote control for your favorite vibrator. LOL

Cheers
Aj

[LieslKate]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

If you give me week or so, I'm sure I can write an AppleScript so that you can use it as a remote control for your favorite vibrator. LOL

Cheers
Aj

http://www.ohmibod.com/

*SMIRKS*

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

<tongue=in cheek>

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj

Pardon the derail, but I think you used this analogy just to show off your computer.

pfftt. lol.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

Pardon the derail, but I think you used this analogy just to show off your computer.

pfftt. lol.

LOL! I DO love my MBP! It is the first time that I have bought *exactly* the computer I wanted and not "well, this is the best I could get but it's not really what I want". Of course, six months later Apple released the unibody MBP which is soooooooooo sexy but my wife would skin me alive if I even talked about buying another one! LOL

Cheers
Aj

[LieslKate]

"It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj "

*hauls yer tongue outta yer cheek* POST-Lesbians??????? :P

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

Your excitement and laughter at coming back calling people out on such a sensitive subject where so many have expressed hurt feelings is disconcerting to say the least... but what ever floats your boat.

All I can say to that is please quote where people actually stated they take offense to others not ID'ing as lesbian when you do... the last thing that's needed here is more twisting and misunderstanding of peoples statements just to stir the pot.

Not saying that you like to do that... would just like to see people using quotes INSTEAD of restating people comments using entirely different words... hence changing the context... and then arguing the altered context.

[QueenofQueens]

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

Trust me, no one else's identity could ever be a threat to mine.
It's rudeness that I take umbrage at.

So, while we're on the subject, I find this particular statement extremely rude and patronizing.

How on earth have you concluded that rejecting lesbian identity is an earmark of "change" and "evolution" for lesbians? Guess what, lesbians still exist as (Shock! Horror!) lesbians.

What you said intones that those who remain lesbian id'ed are not evolved. It implies that the logical evolution of lesbian identity is... a rejection of lesbian identity (wtf?).

I find what you said to be incredibly arrogant, dismissive and mythologizing of many of us, especially in light of the fact that you are male id'ed and, I'm assuming, non lesbian. Is this how you have reconciled your journey to self actualization as male? What I mean is, I'm assuming at some point you thought you were a dyke/lesbian (if not, please forgive the assumption), and along the way, fully embraced the fact that you were actually male. So, do you identify your journey as a natural course of "lesbian evolution", and for your femme counterparts, a full on rejection of the identity, because that's how it played out for you? I'm really curious why you're framing it this way.

If you don't get why I find what you said appallingly condescending, let me put it to you this way; It's something akin to a guy telling a "bunch of hysterical bitches to just calm down" as he laughs at their outrage. You have no right to make such a pronouncement about me, or other lesbians. Now, if you actually id as a male lesbian, then I'd be really curious to hear your take on your own personal evolution. If you aren't, Id prefer that you refrain from making determinations about mine and that of other lesbians.

Your beliefs DO NOT determine the evolutionary process, no ones do, not mine, not anyone's. Only nature can put her pimp stick down on that.