Open Letter: Dear Femme

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Arwen

[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]

I am one who has been overtly anti-lesbian because of past hurts. I do not id as a lesbian for a lot of reasons I have gone diarrhea-mouth over on the Dash site. I take ownership here and now of allowing those specific women (because Gods know it has not been all lesbians) who hurt me to color my view of the word lesbian.

And your last line? Me too! Seriously.

P.S. Did you come out in upstate NY? Because those were some hardcore dyke-feminists.

Arwen, thank you so much for acknowledging anti-lesbian stuff. I have not experienced this with you, ever, but having you acknowledge this affirms my experience with others, which is comforting to me. And, I came out in Minneapolis, but I think our community here in the late 70's and 80's was very similar to the upstate NY community. Thank god many of us finally found our perspective, and senses of humor, again.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think it may be that the competition is fear-based. Not just fear of butch as resource but fear of not being enough.

[snip]

This, to me, has nothing to do with butch-femme and everything to do with SuperId, Id, and Ego.

And, for what it's worth, I think this is very apropos to the dynamic and evolution of this thread.

I agree strongly. All of this, "I am not good enough" crap is part of the human condition that we play out in all environments in our lives at times. We have to work at acknowledging ourselves as whole and good all of our lives.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Dear Bonne,

babygirl ethnographer on a mission.

You just fuckin' made my goddamned day.

I you like you don't know what,

e

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddamned day when you say shit like this!

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddmaned day when you say shit like this!

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?



*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddmaned day when you say shit like this!

I love it when we curse.

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Diva

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory?

Diva, I could never be friends with someone just because of any one thing......and I don't expect it from anyone else either. I just think if ya don't wanna be friends with someone, ya don't, like, point it all out and such. "if you can't say something good about your neighbor, don't say nothin at all"

Originally Posted by evolveme

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?

*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

Oh yeah, good stuff there e. This is back to the whole id/ego thing. Yeah, we all represent to each other what we fear and feel inadequate about in ourselves. This is why diversity in any situation brings such strength to all. If we can love and be comfortable with people who are not just different, but who we are uncomfortable with or fear, then our inner being type-self is getting super-strong. Ok, this lesbian-speak is freakin me out.

Originally Posted by Diva

I love it when we curse.

I fucking love it too Diva.

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

e.... This is back to the whole id/ego thing. Yeah, we all represent to each other what we fear and feel inadequate about in ourselves. This is why diversity in any situation brings such strength to all. If we can love and be comfortable with people who are not just different, but who we are uncomfortable with or fear, then our inner being type-self is getting super-strong. Ok, this lesbian-speak is freakin me out.

shootdamn. now i want to have your frickin' babies

[bonne-maman]

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.

Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

Well, even though I have never felt anything but sweetness in your playing around with me Mr. Clark Kent, I have seen you be a bit biting around cyber town at times. I appreciate you saying this, it means a lot to me coming from a guyperson type like you. I guess some of the most hurtful things about lesbians I have encountered on these sites is when a butch or guytype person says "I would never date a lesbian." This makes me feel pretty much like shit. It's hard to read something like that without internalizing it.

I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me!

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Passionaria

What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????

Maybe the real power is in loving our selves so completely that we believe we deserve to be loved, just because we exist. Then what is there to compete about?

Passionaria

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me!

I like the idea of this thread, bonney. Even if I don't want to date them either. I understand that for them it has to do with not being a woman and that this is the strict definition they have of lesbian, but I am not ready to give up Lesbian and I'm not sure I ever will be. I don't care if it's political for me and that gets on your nerves. It is also personal. It is my story, how I came into this queer life. I honor it.

Thank you and the end.

[SuperFemme]

How do We meet at a crossroads regarding the L word?

How do we make sure *not* to visit the sins of others upon the innocent without negating everyone's truth?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

How do We meet at a crossroads regarding the L word?

How do we make sure *not* to visit the sins of others upon the innocent without negating everyone's truth?

Can you say more?

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

.

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

Boots, I want you to know that I am really, really glad you're here and listening AND participating.

On my first reading of your post, I was quietly pleased. I identified with Fru.

On second reading, I had to stop a minute. I asked myself, "What about when we aren't 'all wrapped in Southern charm?" What about when we aren't sweet and nice and pretty? What about when we do not see ourselves as your safety or your comfort?

When we're called too abrasive, or The Bitch, because we do not meet the standard that has been set for us. Because we are clearing our own path and making our own decisions in a world that would do anything to name us incapable of the task?

What about That Femme? I think she lives in all of us. Some of us are less afraid to show her, maybe.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

I'm quoting your whole post cuz I don't want to take it out of context.

But it speaks to me of that femme disconnect. That idea that there exists two sides to a femme, the bitch and the angel. When in reality, both are present at all times.

For me, it's not a "streak" of strength. I'll shank someone NICELY anytime.

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Hi Passionaria,


I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.

.

Hi Evolveme,
This is a great conversation.I think the chaos serves a purpose. It defuses power, it's been used as a tool for centuries. All of that existed before mass consumerism, although the competition does fuel capitalism wonderfully.

Christianity was the disconnect with the divine feminine. And that was about controlling the masses. We were born into sin, basically unworthy unless we follow XYZ,to redeem ourselves, presets determined by men in power, who mandated that women carry the sin of the world, the original sin. I think this is a huge factor in why we in this culture anyway believe we are not worthy of being loved.