Clothes do not Maketh the butch ....

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Legendryder

My take on clothing is I refuse to look like a slob. Unless of course I am out working on the bike or car or mowing the lawn. I dress neatly. Period. I will not wear clothes with holes, no matter how trendy it might be. I prefer men's button shirts, not because they are men's, but because they just fit better. I have long arms and legs, women's clothes do not fit me. I also have no boobs to speak of, so those darts just look silly. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I wear a mix of clothing- some men's. some women's- I agree, what fits and I feel good in, is the key. Also, I am with you about sloppiness- but, sure, when doing yardwork, house panting, etc., I wear my grungies. Don't care for the sloppy look on anyone- butch/trans/femme... hets... anyone! probably a bias of mine, but, grooming is something I do notice.

Alright, just wanna jump in because there seems to be a reoccuring "anti-'sloppy'" theme on these forums, lol. Seriously, I understand if you all don't like to dress a certain way, but why does it have to come down to commenting about how other's might choose to dress, even if it is "sloppy" in your books? Is a person in a pair of slacks and a polo automatically "better" than a person in torn up jeans and a sleeveless shirt? Also, there's a difference in grooming/hygiene and the clothing a person chooses to wear. Just because I have multiple holes in my pair of camos, or the bottoms of my jeans are shredded to shit, doesn't mean I'm unhygienic. Sheesh, people

From the mouths of the greats:

Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

It is an interesting question how far men would retain their relative rank if they were divested of their clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts. - Henry David Thoreau

He also has a great one from Walden where he goes on rant on how it's idiotic that a man is looked down upon if he walks into town with a hole in the knee of his pants, yet if he had a broken leg no one would care. Why does a hole in the knee of his pants speak of his character? It shouldn't.

If most of us are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies... It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it. - Albert Einstein

In fact, that one just might be new sig material lol

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yeah!! Wear what you like and feel comfy in!

Exactly To me, dress "neatly" if you want to dress that way. Dress in a suit every day of your life if you want. Dress in sweatpants every day if you want. Walk around in a brown paper bag for all I care, lol.

Cheers,

Ender, King of shabby clothing

[Daywalker]

I can be seen about the neighborhood wearing jammies
under mah long black jackets. No socks, slip on Zombie
shoes...and barely a rake thru mah mane.


I clean up good when I care to,
but the rest of the time it's all about my comfort.


Oh, and winter time I wear huge puffy gorilla
and talon slippers to the store.


So there.

It's funny, I met up with a gaydargirl I've chatted with for years the other day and she thought it highly amusing, and was surprised for some reason, that I was wearing a pink tshirt. Apparently only girls wear pink!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Incubus

It's funny, I met up with a gaydargirl I've chatted with for years the other day and she thought it highly amusing, and was surprised for some reason, that I was wearing a pink tshirt. Apparently only girls wear pink!

When I was little I insisted on a blue bedroom. Everyone was shocked and stunned.

Colors are just colors...seeems so silly!

[Jomore]

Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

[Corkey]

Clothes don't define who we are. They are but a expression of our outer shell. I am a human being, I wear cloths that I am comfortable in. Period.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't find anything "silly" about a femme who chooses to wear certain clothing?

Can you clarify what you meant?

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by Jomore

Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

Jomore, i take exception to your post.

i get it that to you femmes would look "pretty silly" in the type of clothes you prefer. But this femme is an extremely feminine woman who can and does wear the very type of clothing you prefer and neither look nor feel silly. In fact, i've been told that the combination of jeans, t-shirt and leather jacket looks pretty darn good on me.

So, you're saying that to you all femmes should dress a certain way? And does this mean that because a don't dress in that certain way she cannot possibly be a femme as far as you are concerned? Are we not all allowed to feel comfortable in our respective skins free from the dictum of others?

Please do enlighten us...

[Jomore]

Ahhh Ms Scarlett!!! Thank you for your vigilance! But not I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations, I'm sure you'd look fine in some of my clothes, wanna come over sand lay dressups wimme?

sorry babe, but nothing to get flakey about, OK? I'm just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy.
Suitably chastened, I won't say anything more on the subject.
Sorry
Jo

[chefhottie25]

i can relate to your point about the importance of clothing and how they define us in the world. it is a part of our skin. my clothing selections are very important to me...they help convey my image and my understanding of who i am. i also wanted to respond to your comment about femmes in "butch" clothing. i think some femmes can totally rock "butch" clothing. it brings femme style to idea of what is considered the butch look. it is classic gender bending and that is always positive. questioning and pushing perceived ideas about what is butch and what is femme. deconstructing those binary roles opens up our freedom of expression.

Originally Posted by Jomore

Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself and who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are.

Femmes I know would look pretty silly in the kind of clothing I prefer - because it just doesn't fit who they are.

Whether I'm wearing jeans, Tshirt and leather jacket, suit with button down shirt, or a mixture of tailored women's and men's clothing, it always looks just butch enough for me to feel comfortable with.
Clothing is our second skin - so I always want to feel comfortable in my skin.

[Gayla]

Umm. What's "butch" clothing?

[theoddz]

I have to share this here about clothes......

There's 2 very nice people I know at work. One is a guy I work with and the Lady is one of my nurse friends who works over on the Psych ward. I recently have been playing "matchmaker" between these two because I think they'd get on famously together. Both have wonderful personalities and they're both Creole, from the Texas/Louisiana areas. They like the same foods, the same kinds of music and they come from similar cultures and backgrounds, so what's not to love???

Now, the woman...my friend Pauline, is a really outgoing, kind, caring and social person and she has this wild 'n crazy sense of humor. She's a dear woman to her very core!! When I was first telling them each about the other, Pauline turns and says to me, about Joe:

"He better not be wearing no K-Mart clothes!!!"



Bah ahahahahahahahaha

Just WHAT, exactly, are "K-Mart clothes"????

People are funny.



~Theo~

[Silverseastar]

Clothes are just clothes. Or are they?

In some senses they reflect an inner identity I think. How we wear them and our choices of what to wear do reflect in my opinion an internal state of mind. Now just because I think that does not mean I have judgement around what that internal state of mind may be and how it's expressed (i.e. I really don't judge what you wear but I may not be attracted to it either).

It's a nice idea to think we as a society do not make judgements about appearance but in fact we use those judgements to discriminate every day. As a femme, I'm often and regularly seen as non-lesbian out in the world simply based on appearance. I need to interact differently to make the less obvious distinguishing parts of my identity clear.

So if you want to be "seen" as a butch, there are certainly markers that others look for. Clothing can be one of them. It's not the only one however.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

Clothes are just clothes. Or are they?

In some senses they reflect an inner identity I think. How we wear them and our choices of what to wear do reflect in my opinion an internal state of mind. Now just because I think that does not mean I have judgement around what that internal state of mind may be and how it's expressed (i.e. I really don't judge what you wear but I may not be attracted to it either).

It's a nice idea to think we as a society do not make judgements about appearance but in fact we use those judgements to discriminate every day. As a femme, I'm often and regularly seen as non-lesbian out in the world simply based on appearance. I need to interact differently to make the less obvious distinguishing parts of my identity clear.

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like. I'm not sure what you mean by interact differently, though. Do you mean simply telling people you're a lesbian if they ask? If so, then I'd agree. But if it means changing how usually interact with people just to fit a certain paradigm, then I'd disagree. I think we need to stomp on all physical and behavioural stereotypes for certain groups of people. If you fit them, fine. If you don't fit them, that should be just as fine.

@Legendryder: Yes, heaven forbid you date a "messy woman." That might cause the sky to fall and all. Fuck, if I only befriended people based on their appearance and how they kept their house I'd be missing out on the most interesting people I've ever met. But hey, do what you like. I just think that kind of prejudice isn't helpful for society as a whole. I prefer to judge people on what they have to say or who they are as people.

[Glenn]

I must say here that I've always had a love/hate relationship with clothes. Speaking strictly for me, I have never wanted to wear female ID clothes. Even when I could have had that dream job/promotion, I would'nt accept it. The same goes for schools, people, etc. A hot date who expected me to look femme for special occassions was likewise shot down, along with the entire relationship. Clothes are also my pride and joy, and clothes defined an important aspect of me, or I could have had a bigger pension. So for better or worse,, clothes have been a huge part of my life-style and Did have a hand in trying to braketh or maketh this Stonebutch.

[Silverseastar]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like. I'm not sure what you mean by interact differently, though. Do you mean simply telling people you're a lesbian if they ask? If so, then I'd agree. But if it means changing how usually interact with people just to fit a certain paradigm, then I'd disagree. I think we need to stomp on all physical and behavioural stereotypes for certain groups of people. If you fit them, fine. If you don't fit them, that should be just as fine.

Hi EnderD,

I'm happy to have whomever do whatever they please in almost all aspects of life, clothing included. I also agree that working on breaking stereotypes is fantastic in theory. However we as humans use stereotypes to make discriminatory judgements, necessary ones, all the time. Therefore I find it highly unlikely that we will be doing away with them anytime soon.

For example, if I know what "butch" looks like it helps me to know how to relate. If a butch dresses in feminine clothing, but calls themselves butch, I will have a hard time knowing how to approach/relate to them. I say this because there are distinct ways of being in the world and relating to others that my butch friends and lover have that differ from my femme experience.

As a femme when I say interact differently, I mean for myself, having to put myself out there as a lesbian yes. To be "seen" as such I need to be more obviously gay. That includes stating upfront that I am when asked. It also means being willing to approach the butches I'm interested in. Knowing who to look for helps.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like.

Had a funny experience about this just the other day...

Ever since Scoote and I started house-hunting, we've been dealing with realtors, mortgage brokers, etc. together. We say "my partner" when referring to each other. We hold hands. We talk about our kids. It's pretty apparent to everyone that we're a couple.

Through that entire time, we had no negative feedback at all. Total acceptance.

Last week, the A/C repair guy had to come service the central air. I was out picking up my son when he arrived, so he talked to Scoote. She was wearing cargo shorts, a sleeveless shirt....both from the men's department no doubt...and a baseball cap. Since stuff was in my name, she did the "my partner" thing. He was fine, as everyone has been, and went to work.

Not long after, I pulled up with Rooster. I started talking to him while I was still in the car (since he was in the driveway getting tools from his truck). When I stepped out, he did a momentary "freeze, double-take, reset" and then kept talking.

I guess he didn't expect the other half of the "lesbian couple" to be wearing a flowered dress that went to mid-calf.

My feeling is what Gloria Steinem said when people commented on how good she looked "for her age" when she turned 40 (at a time when women tended to lie about their age on principle)....."this is what 40 looks like."

Well, "this is what gay looks like".....my version. Everyone else has their own.....dapper or sloppy, femme or butch, or somewhere in between. I'm all about being yourself, however that looks.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Alright, just wanna jump in because there seems to be a reoccuring "anti-'sloppy'" theme on these forums, lol. Seriously, I understand if you all don't like to dress a certain way, but why does it have to come down to commenting about how other's might choose to dress, even if it is "sloppy" in your books? Is a person in a pair of slacks and a polo automatically "better" than a person in torn up jeans and a sleeveless shirt? Also, there's a difference in grooming/hygiene and the clothing a person chooses to wear. Just because I have multiple holes in my pair of camos, or the bottoms of my jeans are shredded to shit, doesn't mean I'm unhygienic. Sheesh, people

From the mouths of the greats:

Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

It is an interesting question how far men would retain their relative rank if they were divested of their clothes. - Henry David Thoreau

Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts. - Henry David Thoreau

He also has a great one from Walden where he goes on rant on how it's idiotic that a man is looked down upon if he walks into town with a hole in the knee of his pants, yet if he had a broken leg no one would care. Why does a hole in the knee of his pants speak of his character? It shouldn't.

If most of us are ashamed of shabby clothes and shoddy furniture, let us be more ashamed of shabby ideas and shoddy philosophies... It would be a sad situation if the wrapper were better than the meat wrapped inside it. - Albert Einstein

In fact, that one just might be new sig material lol



Exactly To me, dress "neatly" if you want to dress that way. Dress in a suit every day of your life if you want. Dress in sweatpants every day if you want. Walk around in a brown paper bag for all I care, lol.

Cheers,

Ender, King of shabby clothing

Really good points!

Ripped up jeans can be hot.

[Corkey]

Today it's a tee shirt( size matters fishin') and shorts kinda day in mah slippers, I walk to and from the trash cans and all about our yard. I could care less what others think of my get up.

If I won the Lottery I'd wear ultra smart bespoke clothing day in day out. As I'm a poor student I keep my good suits for best and wear regular 501's or cargo troosers/shorts and tshirts with a hoody or some such rather a lot. Does that make me an 'un' genderqueer-poof? I think lots of us on the male end of the spectrum (wherever that is for you personally) tend to dress thus on a day to day basis. It's clean and pressed but not 'smart' that's all.

Then when we need to we scrub up mighty fine!