Clothes do not Maketh the butch ....

[Silverseastar]

Clothes are just clothes. Or are they?

In some senses they reflect an inner identity I think. How we wear them and our choices of what to wear do reflect in my opinion an internal state of mind. Now just because I think that does not mean I have judgement around what that internal state of mind may be and how it's expressed (i.e. I really don't judge what you wear but I may not be attracted to it either).

It's a nice idea to think we as a society do not make judgements about appearance but in fact we use those judgements to discriminate every day. As a femme, I'm often and regularly seen as non-lesbian out in the world simply based on appearance. I need to interact differently to make the less obvious distinguishing parts of my identity clear.

So if you want to be "seen" as a butch, there are certainly markers that others look for. Clothing can be one of them. It's not the only one however.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

Clothes are just clothes. Or are they?

In some senses they reflect an inner identity I think. How we wear them and our choices of what to wear do reflect in my opinion an internal state of mind. Now just because I think that does not mean I have judgement around what that internal state of mind may be and how it's expressed (i.e. I really don't judge what you wear but I may not be attracted to it either).

It's a nice idea to think we as a society do not make judgements about appearance but in fact we use those judgements to discriminate every day. As a femme, I'm often and regularly seen as non-lesbian out in the world simply based on appearance. I need to interact differently to make the less obvious distinguishing parts of my identity clear.

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like. I'm not sure what you mean by interact differently, though. Do you mean simply telling people you're a lesbian if they ask? If so, then I'd agree. But if it means changing how usually interact with people just to fit a certain paradigm, then I'd disagree. I think we need to stomp on all physical and behavioural stereotypes for certain groups of people. If you fit them, fine. If you don't fit them, that should be just as fine.

@Legendryder: Yes, heaven forbid you date a "messy woman." That might cause the sky to fall and all. Fuck, if I only befriended people based on their appearance and how they kept their house I'd be missing out on the most interesting people I've ever met. But hey, do what you like. I just think that kind of prejudice isn't helpful for society as a whole. I prefer to judge people on what they have to say or who they are as people.

[Glenn]

I must say here that I've always had a love/hate relationship with clothes. Speaking strictly for me, I have never wanted to wear female ID clothes. Even when I could have had that dream job/promotion, I would'nt accept it. The same goes for schools, people, etc. A hot date who expected me to look femme for special occassions was likewise shot down, along with the entire relationship. Clothes are also my pride and joy, and clothes defined an important aspect of me, or I could have had a bigger pension. So for better or worse,, clothes have been a huge part of my life-style and Did have a hand in trying to braketh or maketh this Stonebutch.

[asphaltcowboi]

im thinking if you are what you wear i would have to be an old worn out pair of 501s and a harley tee most the time.

[Jomore]

PS
I just like really nice very masculine clothing, that's all.

[Silverseastar]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like. I'm not sure what you mean by interact differently, though. Do you mean simply telling people you're a lesbian if they ask? If so, then I'd agree. But if it means changing how usually interact with people just to fit a certain paradigm, then I'd disagree. I think we need to stomp on all physical and behavioural stereotypes for certain groups of people. If you fit them, fine. If you don't fit them, that should be just as fine.

Hi EnderD,

I'm happy to have whomever do whatever they please in almost all aspects of life, clothing included. I also agree that working on breaking stereotypes is fantastic in theory. However we as humans use stereotypes to make discriminatory judgements, necessary ones, all the time. Therefore I find it highly unlikely that we will be doing away with them anytime soon.

For example, if I know what "butch" looks like it helps me to know how to relate. If a butch dresses in feminine clothing, but calls themselves butch, I will have a hard time knowing how to approach/relate to them. I say this because there are distinct ways of being in the world and relating to others that my butch friends and lover have that differ from my femme experience.

As a femme when I say interact differently, I mean for myself, having to put myself out there as a lesbian yes. To be "seen" as such I need to be more obviously gay. That includes stating upfront that I am when asked. It also means being willing to approach the butches I'm interested in. Knowing who to look for helps.

[Chancie]

I personally love a yummy butch in worn out jeans and a button down shirt but

Just because I see someone who appears to be female bodied, wearing worn out jeans and a button down shirt,

That doesn't mean that they identify as a butch.

Just as I don't care to be pigeon holed based on my attire,

I choose not to make assumptions about someone's gender based on their aesthetic and practical choices.

[Silverseastar]

I agree, it is not good to make assumptions based solely on clothing. My goodness can you imagine all the errors in judgement that could cause?

I do think it can give some clues however on who to approach and the rest is a delicate finding out from there. That's the truly fun part!

Even clothing choices make a difference in who one is attracted to even as expressed by this thread. Some like casual, some dressier, some a mixture of both. I think we'd be being dishonest with ourselves if we say it doesn't.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Chancie

I personally love a yummy butch in worn out jeans and a button down shirt...

Yummy visual!!!

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yes, people may judge. Does that make it helpful as far as progressing society? Not particularly. So shouldn't we, instead, be working on breaking stereotypes of what a "lesbian looks like" or what a "butch looks like"? That seems more productive than just accepting what society thinks certain people should wear/look like.

Had a funny experience about this just the other day...

Ever since Scoote and I started house-hunting, we've been dealing with realtors, mortgage brokers, etc. together. We say "my partner" when referring to each other. We hold hands. We talk about our kids. It's pretty apparent to everyone that we're a couple.

Through that entire time, we had no negative feedback at all. Total acceptance.

Last week, the A/C repair guy had to come service the central air. I was out picking up my son when he arrived, so he talked to Scoote. She was wearing cargo shorts, a sleeveless shirt....both from the men's department no doubt...and a baseball cap. Since stuff was in my name, she did the "my partner" thing. He was fine, as everyone has been, and went to work.

Not long after, I pulled up with Rooster. I started talking to him while I was still in the car (since he was in the driveway getting tools from his truck). When I stepped out, he did a momentary "freeze, double-take, reset" and then kept talking.

I guess he didn't expect the other half of the "lesbian couple" to be wearing a flowered dress that went to mid-calf.

My feeling is what Gloria Steinem said when people commented on how good she looked "for her age" when she turned 40 (at a time when women tended to lie about their age on principle)....."this is what 40 looks like."

Well, "this is what gay looks like".....my version. Everyone else has their own.....dapper or sloppy, femme or butch, or somewhere in between. I'm all about being yourself, however that looks.