What attracts you to Ftms ......

GraffitiBoi · 10-28-2012, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemme

Basically, as I understand it, this stemmed from a set of comments made about how this era was the best and that some folks wished the world was like this now, etc. Somehow that opinion morphed into a judgement call on others who do not participate in that dynamic.

I'm only using Gemme's post as a starting point to clarify what happened and try to maybe get people to understand where all this came from.

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

I don't think any single person here was in the wrong for anything they said. I do think it was wrong for people to jump to conclusions and make assumptions first. But it happens and forums are where we can talk it out and understand each other. Everyone has different ways they live their lives. No one is denying that right. Some women like to take care of their partner, some want to be taken care of, and others want an equal 50/50 split. No one is wrong. Assuming a 'June Cleaver' Femme wants to give up her rights and live like it's the 1950s based on one small comment is not much different than how some straight people assume that being gay means you like to sleep around with everyone and have no morals based solely on the small fact that you are attracted to someone who is the same gender as you are.

Thank you for listening and I hope this may have helped sort this all out, at least a little bit.

BullDog · 10-28-2012, 10:40 AM

I think I do partially get it. Like if I said, wow I love the 1920's they had such great music and clothes. Then people come back and say OMG BullDog how could you say that? What about WWI, The Great Depression was about to hit, all the oppression- racism, sexism, etc. Then I'm like- geeze I like the music and clothes I didn't say I love everything about it or want to live exactly that way.

With the whole 1950's thing, June Cleaver, OFOS- it feels like we are hit with it time and time again and it feels stifling and oppressive to me. Maybe because I lived a quasi-version of it. I think the June Cleaver thread is quite enlightening and expresses many of the thoughts I feel. I get that we can all have our own favorite eras and role models, but these just seem to be predominant ones that get held out as the standard over and over again. It feels like a very white upper middle class heterosexual model that gets held up as the standard that most of us could never live up to or want to live up to. Perhaps the answer is to just go to our separate corners. I really don't know.

Chancie · 10-28-2012, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraffitiBoi

<snip>

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

<snip>

The thing is, and it is not my intention to rank on that member, so do I. I love taking care of Pete. I understand the desire for a shorthand to describe that, I do. But the references to periods of time that were especially bad for women, or Blacks, or any other group that has been systematically discriminated against? It's shit stirring, whether intentional or not.

GraffitiBoi · 10-28-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancie

But the references to periods of time that were especially bad for women, or Blacks, or any other group that has been systematically discriminated against? It's shit stirring, whether intentional or not.

And yet people love the renaissance fair and flock to it and dress up in period costume, but it doesn't stir up as much... stuff... as this person's post did. Talk about an oppressive time period!

That being said I think I need to remove myself from this whole thread until (if) it un-derails itself! LOL

Hominid · 10-28-2012, 10:58 AM

I think I brought "kink" into the conversation - I think I also qualified it as "some level of kink" - I apologize for any offense. There is a whole community of people who come at this from a 50's household kinky point of view, I must have had that on my brain. Medieval Fairs aren't kink either. I'm not sure bringing kink into the discussion invalidates what I was saying. Actually whether it's kink or not, although times have changed - there were women who felt empowered even back then, and weren't happy about the changes.

As far as being an asshole - yes, born-men have the whole world in which to be an asshole. This may be less so for trans-men to different degrees depending on their circumstances. I believe we are ALL assholes. I *think* I understand what DMW was trying to say - I wasn't thrilled with the "especially submissive femme" reference. Really, he has a right to want to vent, to be his "asshole" self. But in a thread such as this with a large number of femmes - not wise. DMW would be better off choosing another thread, or maybe creating his own, where other guys in similar shoes who have gone through or are going through the process can call him out or support him from our perspective. I can say it is very hard at times to be surrounded by male privilege, not be perceived as male, and confuse the lack of receipt of male privilege with lack of recognition as male. VERY hard, and often not resolvable until one is perceived as male socially.

For me, I became an even bigger feminist the more I was perceived as male. Males sometimes see me as betraying them, women are generally confused when I advocate - and sadly, if they knew I was trans I would not be taken as seriously.

10-28-2012, 10:40 AM	#2
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	I think I do partially get it. Like if I said, wow I love the 1920's they had such great music and clothes. Then people come back and say OMG BullDog how could you say that? What about WWI, The Great Depression was about to hit, all the oppression- racism, sexism, etc. Then I'm like- geeze I like the music and clothes I didn't say I love everything about it or want to live exactly that way. With the whole 1950's thing, June Cleaver, OFOS- it feels like we are hit with it time and time again and it feels stifling and oppressive to me. Maybe because I lived a quasi-version of it. I think the June Cleaver thread is quite enlightening and expresses many of the thoughts I feel. I get that we can all have our own favorite eras and role models, but these just seem to be predominant ones that get held out as the standard over and over again. It feels like a very white upper middle class heterosexual model that gets held up as the standard that most of us could never live up to or want to live up to. Perhaps the answer is to just go to our separate corners. I really don't know. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

10-28-2012, 10:58 AM	#5
Hominid Member How Do You Identify?: Male with interesting historical perspective Relationship Status: Taking Applications Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: In perpetual Wonder. And Western Mass. Posts: 254 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 417 Thanked 753 Times in 187 Posts Rep Power: 11507408	I think I brought "kink" into the conversation - I think I also qualified it as "some level of kink" - I apologize for any offense. There is a whole community of people who come at this from a 50's household kinky point of view, I must have had that on my brain. Medieval Fairs aren't kink either. I'm not sure bringing kink into the discussion invalidates what I was saying. Actually whether it's kink or not, although times have changed - there were women who felt empowered even back then, and weren't happy about the changes. As far as being an asshole - yes, born-men have the whole world in which to be an asshole. This may be less so for trans-men to different degrees depending on their circumstances. I believe we are ALL assholes. I think I understand what DMW was trying to say - I wasn't thrilled with the "especially submissive femme" reference. Really, he has a right to want to vent, to be his "asshole" self. But in a thread such as this with a large number of femmes - not wise. DMW would be better off choosing another thread, or maybe creating his own, where other guys in similar shoes who have gone through or are going through the process can call him out or support him from our perspective. I can say it is very hard at times to be surrounded by male privilege, not be perceived as male, and confuse the lack of receipt of male privilege with lack of recognition as male. VERY hard, and often not resolvable until one is perceived as male socially. For me, I became an even bigger feminist the more I was perceived as male. Males sometimes see me as betraying them, women are generally confused when I advocate - and sadly, if they knew I was trans I would not be taken as seriously.