only another butch would understand

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.

I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.

Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.

I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

The statements I bolded in blue sound contradictory to me. Is it just me?

The statements in red seem contradictory to me as well.

Also, what would you deem the "positive aspects of masculinity", as you put it? Conversely, what would you consider the positive aspects of femininity to be? Or the negative for that matter? Also you seem to categorize sexism and violence as masculinity, yet you identify as masculine. How does one go about extracting only the positive 'male' or 'masculine' qualities from 'masculinity'? Are females or feminine people never sexist or violent?

What has always and continues to confound me is why masculine/masculine-identified/transmasculine butches, who are female-identified, seem insistent on attributing certain traits/behaviors (you know, the ones we can all be proud of - independence, capability, strength, resourcefulness/handiness, farting prowess, etc) to males/masculinity to begin with. And then I'm told I "can't just be here to get fluffed up and told how manly I am." Well, to that I say, don't fluff me up and tell me how manly I am. ha.

And then the same butch (not picking on you bulldog but since you did it this time... will go on to direct the general 'you' here (which includes me, a male) on how to behave in what I'm hearing you say is (predominantly, if not completely biologically) female space, of which I am unfailingly aware. You said, "You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things." I agree. That's why I don't feel I can have it both ways. But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.

I personally never hear anyone other than female-identified butches talking about this continuum of masculinity that seems to exist somewhere. Creating and perpetuating this type of hierarchy is sexist and misogynist, when anyone does it. I find it especially betraying when females do it to other females, butch and femme alike, especially to women of trans experience who are femme or are female-identified butches and were socialized to be someone's/society's idea of what is 'male' or 'masculine' and are trying to find acceptance and safety in a b-f space as females.

Let me pose a question to the general you - if you're female-identified and you gender behaviors and personality traits, why don't you attribute your best to your female socialization and your female traits/hormones that are inherent within you? (And I'm not talking just compassion and nurturing and those stereotypically female traits here - strength, power, determination, bravery, assertiveness, resourcefulness - you don't think you developed these qualities by living in a female body? And I've not transitioned so I'm not speaking from a place of male privilege here because I do not receive it. I'm speaking as someone who has experienced oppression and discrimination and sexism and misogyny in a female body just like everyone else here at one time or another. In my own sexist mind my best qualities are because of female hormones and socialization. I know these communities are microcosms of a larger society but why bring the larger society's norms into your queer space and perpetuate them? If you can't change patterns of thinking within your little corner of queer space then you're not likely to change the world outside of that space.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Ben-Her

The statements I bolded in blue sound contradictory to me. Is it just me?

The statements in red seem contradictory to me as well.

Also, what would you deem the "positive aspects of masculinity", as you put it? Conversely, what would you consider the positive aspects of femininity to be? Or the negative for that matter? Also you seem to categorize sexism and violence as masculinity, yet you identify as masculine. How does one go about extracting only the positive 'male' or 'masculine' qualities from 'masculinity'? Are females or feminine people never sexist or violent?

What has always and continues to confound me is why masculine/masculine-identified/transmasculine butches, who are female-identified, seem insistent on attributing certain traits/behaviors (you know, the ones we can all be proud of - independence, capability, strength, resourcefulness/handiness, farting prowess, etc) to males/masculinity to begin with. And then I'm told I "can't just be here to get fluffed up and told how manly I am." Well, to that I say, don't fluff me up and tell me how manly I am. ha.

And then the same butch (not picking on you bulldog but since you did it this time... will go on to direct the general 'you' here (which includes me, a male) on how to behave in what I'm hearing you say is (predominantly, if not completely biologically) female space, of which I am unfailingly aware. You said, "You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things." I agree. That's why I don't feel I can have it both ways. But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.

I personally never hear anyone other than female-identified butches talking about this continuum of masculinity that seems to exist somewhere. Creating and perpetuating this type of hierarchy is sexist and misogynist, when anyone does it. I find it especially betraying when females do it to other females, butch and femme alike, especially to women of trans experience who are femme or are female-identified butches and were socialized to be someone's/society's idea of what is 'male' or 'masculine' and are trying to find acceptance and safety in a b-f space as females.

Let me pose a question to the general you - if you're female-identified and you gender behaviors and personality traits, why don't you attribute your best to your female socialization and your female traits/hormones that are inherent within you? (And I'm not talking just compassion and nurturing and those stereotypically female traits here - strength, power, determination, bravery, assertiveness, resourcefulness - you don't think you developed these qualities by living in a female body? And I've not transitioned so I'm not speaking from a place of male privilege here because I do not receive it. I'm speaking as someone who has experienced oppression and discrimination and sexism and misogyny in a female body just like everyone else here at one time or another. In my own sexist mind my best qualities are because of female hormones and socialization. I know these communities are microcosms of a larger society but why bring the larger society's norms into your queer space and perpetuate them? If you can't change patterns of thinking within your little corner of queer space then you're not likely to change the world outside of that space.

Ben-Her I have no idea why you see the parts of my posts that you bolded in red and blue as contradictory. You have lost me there.

You said this: But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.

You seem to be saying this as if you are disagreeing with me, but I agree with this whole heartedly.

I also agree that my best traits come from my experience being socialized as a female.

I am confused where your disagreements with me are.

[Admin]

Just to be clear:

This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.

I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.

One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.

[BullDog]

Thank you!

[Darth Denkay]

This is great news. When I was new on another site I got the impression that male pronouns were the default for butches, and because I am masculine-identified that suited me just fine. It wasn't until years later that I realized that was not okay with some people. It has been difficult to know how to refer to folks, and having this specified I hope will have a significant impact on valuing all butches.

In reading over this thread, one thing jumped out at me. I don't know how prevalent this is, but I actually do not identify as female or male. Now, biologically I am female (sex) but when female and male are used to define gender I don't use either. I see it as once again falling into a binary. I identify as masculine, I have masculine energy, but I am not male. A butch friend once described himself as FTNF - female to not female - which really resonates with me. The act of not identifying as female (gender) but not identifying as male either.

Binaries suck, because they seldom, if ever, work.

Originally Posted by Admin

Just to be clear:

This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.

I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.

One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Admin

Just to be clear:

This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.

I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.

One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.

Just a general reminder to word our posts carefully that this place retains a welcoming feel to everyone.