only another butch would understand

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.

Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)

But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?

And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."

Older Second Wave feminisms- wow I certainly disagree with you there.

Mythic misogyny- wow once again. don't mean to be flippant, I just can't believe you would say that.

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default? Wow once again. None of the butches I know real time use these male defaults and we have no problem distinguishing who are the butches and who are the femmes. As to the online history I certainly have a completely different take on things than you do.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default?

hey Bulldog, i gave this some thought too and i realize that we all (yes, including F -identified butches) have to take some responsibility here for either not speaking up, personally or not questioning the immense use of *HE* when/while it was happening. i think that's actually pretty fair--we *all* need to take some ownership of what it means when we male-by-default or when we don't carve a space for ourselves in the community. either way, all of us owning it is a good thing, to me, it's a great starting (over?) point.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

hey Bulldog, i gave this some thought too and i realize that we all (yes, including F -identified butches) have to take some responsibility here for either not speaking up, personally or not questioning the immense use of *HE* when/while it was happening. i think that's actually pretty fair--we *all* need to take some ownership of what it means when we male-by-default or when we don't carve a space for ourselves in the community. either way, all of us owning it is a good thing, to me, it's a great starting (over?) point.

I agree we all need to speak up. That is what I am doing now and I, along with other butches like Toughy, have a very long history for speaking up about this very topic. We have worked tirelessly against the invisibility of women and female identified butches. And we have gotten a lot of shit for it along with some support. But yes, I whole heartedly agree with you. Thank you for your post.

[SuperFemme]

Isn't "Male Privilege" akin to "White Privilege" in that because of gender (real or perceived) certain privileges are given even though not strived for?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Isn't "Male Privilege" akin to "White Privilege" in that because of gender (real or perceived) certain privileges are given even though not strived for?

That's the thing, though, honey.

Show me the privilege.

What privilege are we automatically granting to our male id'd folks and transmen here that nobody else has? The privilege to say righteous shit and get away with it? I haven't seen that.

Am I blind?

[SuperFemme]

I am not a carrier of male privilege, but I'd love to hear from others if they feel it is somethings butches/trans people incur.


The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).
8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).
12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.
15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.
24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).
25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More).
26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).
27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).
29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.
31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.
35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.
36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.
37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).
39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.
40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).
45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

[Medusa]

(gently)

I think one of the ways that Male privilege might play out in an online forum is that many (most?) men on this site will not have to constantly correct people on their preferred pronoun.

(and this is, again, an example of a privilege that is inherited and not asked for)

edited to add: recognizing also that most Femmes have this identity privlege as well.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am not a carrier of male privilege, but I'd love to hear from others if they feel it is somethings butches/trans people incur.


The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed. I have never even been considered for a prestigious job. I have only worked at places where I was at the bottom wrung of the ladder.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. More like in spite of my sex and gender appearing to not fit together, by cis/het standards. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex. It's because my sex and gender don't correspond.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities. Hah, that's funny.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. Actually, I have been mocked and whispered about, made fun of no matter which bathroom I used, etc. by my coworkers. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job. NOT. I was expected to fail, and when I didn't do everything perfectly the first time, I was mocked for not being "tough" enough.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. I HAVE been raped. (More).
8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are. I have been followed home by a group of teenage boys laughing and making rude comments to me.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question. No, but I am not given my due as my daughter's parent because my ex-wife gave birth to her, not me.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question. Not sure, my ex-wife has only allowed me to have a peripheral role in Jessica's life after we split up.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. Again, never had this chance. (More).
12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home. Never had that one thrown at me. But I was expected to work, that is true.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press. Come on, I would never get elected to shit.
14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true. Haha, I have zero representatives who are butch or trans.
15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be. I am not cisgendered, so that would be a NO.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. I had a big brother who was allowed to do EVERYTHING and I wasn't allowed to have the toys I wanted or play the sports or go with Dad on fishing trips or any of that shit. (More).
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default. Hah, no butches/transpeople like me in any media, ever.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. Not even close. (More).
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones. I am always wondering if I didn't get this job or that opportunity because of my trans status.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception. That would be something, wouldn't it?
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex. By whom? *shrug*
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex. *shrug*
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial. I just get stared at in public, and if I look at someone who is staring, they look away quickly cause they don't want to get caught doing it.
24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” This is true, no one has ever called me a slut. (More).
25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. HAH. (More).
26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. My clothing fits like shit cause I'm short and pudgy. It is cheap though. (More).
27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. True. (More).
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. Nope. A cis gendered woman will probably get better treatment than me. (More).
29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore. There's a lot about the way I look that isn't conventional, and I am treated differently for it.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. True.
31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.) Crimes like having my car vandalized by a bunch of bigots, I don't even report because I know nothing will be done.
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he. But those terms aren't considered to apply to me by the straight/cisgendered world.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is. No, I have gotten that shit that too, even after my hysto, some people assume.
34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name. I did change my name from my birth name to "Drew". I take crap for having a male name though.
35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon. No, just on whether the customers might be frightened by me.
36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male. And yet, Christian conservatives continue to tell me that I am going to hell.
37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me. Well, really I am supposed to be married to a man and have HIS children, according to most major religions.
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. True, I don't cook, but I do a lot of things around the house. (More).
39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing. When I was married, I was a full 50% parent.
40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers. I would never assume that. I love kids and spending time with them.
41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer. True, sort of. But I am not interested in straight women. I am only interested in Femmes. That's a whole different breed.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. I was called fat over and over as a kid, and my ex-wife used to call me that too. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. Perhaps that is true since I started to wear my masculinity and got divorced. (More).
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. I have never been beaten up by a partner, but my older brother beat me senseless for years when I was a kid. (More).
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” That is true. They tend to stare at me though. (More: 1 2).
45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men. Maybe.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

My answers are in blue. So, what do you folks think, do I have male privilege as someone who is female bodied, but male identified?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Older Second Wave feminisms- wow I certainly disagree with you there.

Mythic misogyny- wow once again. don't mean to be flippant, I just can't believe you would say that.

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default? Wow once again. None of the butches I know real time use these male defaults and we have no problem distinguishing who are the butches and who are the femmes. As to the online history I certainly have a completely different take on things than you do.

I called it mythic, not because misogyny hasn't happened in our online spaces, but because yesterday it felt to me that you were separating female id'd folks from the male id'd ones in the Who is Just a Bit More Responsible for Examining Their Masculinity. It sounded like transmasculine guys and transmen might be more responsible for misogyny in these spaces. That isn't what I've seen. Hell, I've watched some femmes say some pretty righteous things over the years. And don't misinterpret my investment here. I haven't any. I love every kind of butch there is - equally. I just care that we don't isolate.

And when I first started reading butch/femme spaces, practically *everyone* was he or hy/she-ing. Tell me, who is responsible, if not... all of us?