only another butch would understand

[Toughy]

Greyson you make some excellent points and for simplicities sake and to keep me from rambling to much I will use this color to respond.

Originally Posted by Greyson

Toughy, Bulldog, Sharkchomp, Jess, Atomic, Met... all of you really thank you for your sharing your thoughts. I think this is an important topic to discuss. I am very heartened that our community is trying to talk about things that may be difficult to talk about for many.

Toughy, when you say butch-femme is primarily a female space; it started that way.... Do you mean that butches and femmes started with female bodies or is there more to it? You and I are in the same age group and I think we both have identified as butches for all of our adult lives. When we came out, I think in different parts of the USA, The Second Wave of Feminism was the self and media designated leaders of gay womens culture. The term "lesbian" was just beginning to be used in a positive fashion. Many many gay women had trouble acclimating to the word "lesbian."

We did not have a very large consciousness about Trans stuff. To be Trans was not an option for most. How would many of us know we were shades of a third gender or gender that is not static? We did not. I found myself in the camp of Butch-Femme. We were discarded and marginalized by the general population of Lesbians. I know you know this stuff. My point is I believe that many in the generation before us or the generation when we were baby butches, there was no room for female masculinity nor a gender outside of the binary. If you mean the butch-femme community started with people that were born into a biological/cisgender female body, I agree. If you mean female was the primary gender, I agee but I also think if we had more options at that point in time, "female space" would not have necessarily been the default.

Yep we are the same age and have been butch since birth. I sometimes find it difficult to talk about the early 70's with the meanings of the present language. There was no conversation about gender and gender identity. It didn't exist. I really did just mean butch was female and/or woman identity at that time. And I would agree that had other options existed then, butch certainly may not have been a female/woman id.

The 'hate the wanna be manbutch' and the total rejection of femininity as in hair make-up or jewelry that was the hallmark of 2nd Wave Lesbian Feminism really had no legs in Amarillo Tx or in the Army. It was butch or femme or kiki.

Yes, misogyny is in the very fabric of our culture. Like you and Bully I do believe we have a responsibility to examine our masculinity. All of us of the butch bent have that responsibility. Not just Transmen and/or male identified. The larger culture is still assigning masculinity to "men." I think most of us in here know masculinity is not purely a male characteristic.

Yes I did leave out non-male id'd folks. I agree that all of us who are masculine (regardless of id) need to examine masculinity and it's power in our society and culture. I do think it is imperative and incumbent and a duty that those who are male/trans id'd take a really close look at it. If you walk in the world as a man you have a huge responsibility to lead the change of the paradigm about what masculine and male and man actually means. It seems to me male/trans id requires one to be in the forefront for change.

I know when I am perceived as man, I truly try to be aware of how I perform man. (And yes there are times I do nothing to suggest I am not a man.) How do I act? What do I say? How do I respond to sexism and negative comments about women?

As for T changing the way we think and act, for me the jury is still out. I take T. I am much more vigilant about how I treat women, femmes. I have not turned into an angry, abusive, sexed crazed "man."

Before I started to take T, it was found I had high levels of testosterone for a female bodied person. I am willing to bet we have female identified butches in our community with higher then "normal" amounts of testosterone in their body. Are they thinking and acting differently?

Being in the upper end of the normal range of T levels for a woman is an entirely different thing than the levels reached and maintained when one transitions and becomes hormonally male. I was not insinuating in any way that all folks who use T have 'roid rage and become evil incarnate.

I'm not trying to pick on you Toughy. I have read many of your posts because although I may not agree with you sometimes, I respect your mind, your intelligence.

As for the White Male Privilege, it does exist. I am not trying to fault anyone. I think Bulldog is just saying we need to start admitting to ourselves that male privilege does exist, and how will we begin to break it down in our community and assist in erradicating old and ignorant ideas and behavior starting with ourselves.

I think if we take a closer look we will find that most butches have been on the receiving end of some male privilege. And, we have also known discrimination because we did not look like the "norm" for a female bodied person.

Finally, "White Male Privilege" and "Male Privilege." I think it is a bit of a different experience for butches, Transmen that are "other." How many black or brown men do we seen in the prisons? At the head of Corporations, in lead positions?

Like Jess says, the Golden Rule is a pretty good start.

yes yes and yes.........agreed on your last paragraphs.

My friend, I would never think you are picking on me. I see you as thoughtful, insightful, gentle and always courteous. This is a discussion of really difficult issues and concepts, and I think we all do well when we speak from our hearts.