Question to butches and how they deal with differences in dating

[Shystonefem]

I am femme and you a not want my opinion but...

I don't jump into see and I don't like casual sex. I won't bring up the discussion of exclusiveness an
but I will respond if asked.

I don't date younger butches, I date butches close to my age or a bit older.

I did have a butch think that we were "exclusive". It was awkward. She didn't have my phone number or my email or my address... but she felt like we were a couple.

I don't think it is a butch thing or a femme thing, I think it is a person thing.

I probably won't date anyone if I am interested in someone but if you assume we are exclusive without talking about it, we have a problem.

I guess what I am saying is.... don't expect anything from me unless you discuss it with me. It is when you assume that we have a problem.

I am honest and I am fiercely loyal but, before you get that loyalty - you have to ask first.

[Kelt]

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance.

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance.

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

Hard to believe that not everyone loves romance right? I now make it a point to ask if she likes romance because it's just something I do a lot without thinking about it. I think if someone doesn't want romance, they are not for me. It's hard to retrain yourself into not doing things especially when I get a lot of pleasure from being romantic.

Looking at it from cupcake's point of view from her words on this thread, I think that sometimes right away, things can get hidden behind the blanket of romance, meaning you can get caught up in it all and maybe not really see what is in front of you. So not that you can't be romantic but save the romance for later when you are trusting each other more and know each other better?

Who knows. All I really do know is that getting to know me is getting to know my romantic side and it tends to come out right away.

[Shystonefem]

Originally Posted by SleepyButch

Hard to believe that not everyone loves romance right? I now make it a point to ask if she likes romance because it's just something I do a lot without thinking about it. I think if someone doesn't want romance, they are not for me. It's hard to retrain yourself into not doing things especially when I get a lot of pleasure from being romantic.

Looking at it from cupcake's point of view from her words on this thread, I think that sometimes right away, things can get hidden behind the blanket of romance, meaning you can get caught up in it all and maybe not really see what is in front of you. So not that you can't be romantic but save the romance for later when you are trusting each other more and know each other better?

Who knows. All I really do know is that getting to know me is getting to know my romantic side and it tends to come out right away.

But the romance has to come from the right place. I have am ex that spent hundreds of dollars on flowers every single week, left gifts at my housr, would call stores that she knew I would be at and bought stuff fore in advance....... BUT.... she turned out to be a psycho. Sometimes people try too hard so that their "other" side doesn't show....... right away.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Oh I do like romance, kelt. But not at first. I think it's too personal and intimate from someone I don't know. It scares me. It's like someone breathing in my face and asking all about my feeeeeeelings if I don't know them.

I actually am old fashioned once I am in a relationship. In ways that are very... Particular.

However, I'm just a very emotionally reserved person when it comes to deeper feelings and certain intimacies. I can verbally spill my guts about who I am, all my history and I'm not a private person about details of my life, but you want to know my deeper feelings?

Get to know me first. Be my friend. Show me you can be my friend before you can be my lover.

This gives me confidence that if something needs discussing, or something happens, you can put certain romantic feelings aside and treat me like a cherished friend first. To me, that is the most trusted thing anyone can do for me. And I often put my feelings of jealousy, ego, hurt, pissy snit aside to speak to a partner as a *friend* first, once I trust them.

I have friendships that have lasted for 32 years. None of my relationships have. So Given that my friendships are the most valuable thing I know of, when a partner that treats me like a friend first, then they have my trust. Once I know that they see me as a valuable friend and person first, *then* I like all the romance. Because then I know them well enough for that level of intimacy.

But I can also find a supermarket sandwich in a carpark the rain very romantic if I'm with the right person. I can think of a very romantic afternoon spent laughing in her car with tesco tuna fish sandwiches, sitting in a car park with the rain leaking in the back. There doesn't need to be flowers and chocolates in that memory. It still makes me smile.

I'm not really a flowers and chocolate girl romance girl. I'm a science museum and divey pub romance girl. Everyone has different ideas about what romance is.

Mine just happens to be more geek than traditional princess.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance.

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

Romantic gestures are nice, and a way to show appreciation, love, etc.. It's when those gestures or "love tasks" become a way to want to get all weird and proprietary.. Also, (sometimes and this is where I think folks get all wigged out) Femmes want to be the one's leading the romance or want to be able to express romantic gestures which are for some reason only assigned to butch/masculine/Top/Boss people....

Also, like you stated someone's view of romance is hearts and flowers, where as for others it can be museums and fuck fests.... When things don't stay "binary" is when I feel that people get all oogy and weird, and then somehow someone ends up being uncomfortable...


I am hoping I can communicate what I am muddling in my mind, it's been a while since I have had to type out my thoughts...

[Ginger]

I'm trying to think about what I consider "romance."

I think the romantic gestures that really get to me are quiet and thoughtful, not big and splashy.

When I was in college, on a very cold night, my lover got out of bed and put these big fuzzy red socks on my feet. I was swooning.

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by Shystonefem

But the romance has to come from the right place. I have am ex that spent hundreds of dollars on flowers every single week, left gifts at my housr, would call stores that she knew I would be at and bought stuff fore in advance....... BUT.... she turned out to be a psycho. Sometimes people try too hard so that their "other" side doesn't show....... right away.

Of course it has to come from the right place. I can tell you romance isn't about buying people things all the time. Isn't that more of trying to buy someone's affection? That would be a red flag for me right away I think but that's just me. I would rather someone be creative than buy me things all the time. Yes, I like to be romanced as well.

It's up to the two people involved to take the time to get to know each other. No one's other side is going to show right away, which is what I think one of the points of this thread is. Hell, sometimes someone's true side doesn't show up for a long time!

[Shystonefem]

Originally Posted by SleepyButch

Of course it has to come from the right place. I can tell you romance isn't about buying people things all the time. Isn't that more of trying to buy someone's affection? That would be a red flag for me right away I think but that's just me. I would rather someone be creative than buy me things all the time. Yes, I like to be romanced as well.

It's up to the two people involved to take the time to get to know each other. No one's other side is going to show right away, which is what I think one of the points of this thread is. Hell, sometimes someone's true side doesn't show up for a long time!

I completely agree with you. I was stupid. I know that now.

[Shystonefem]

Originally Posted by Ginger

I'm trying to think about what I consider "romance."

I think the romantic gestures that really get to me are quiet and thoughtful, not big and splashy.

When I was in college, on a very cold night, my lover got out of bed and put these big fuzzy red socks on my feet. I was swooning.

Romantic gestures is not about stuff. It is about thinking about what the other person needs/wants and getting it done.

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by Shystonefem

I completely agree with you. I was stupid. I know that now.

Please don't say that you were stupid. It's easy to get caught up in the moments like you described. A lot of crave attention and it comes in many forms. Some people express love differently. As I mentioned in an earlier post euphoria can be a bitch! We all make mistakes. It's what we do with them after we realized that we made them that counts.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Romance to me: documentary films with home made pizza. Having them cook me a dinner they like to cook for themselves. Going to the store for me. Taking me to a museum. Sitting in bed on a Sunday and drinking tea and playing cards and laughing and being sarcastic. Buying me a kinder egg. Having a pic nic at my local park and looking at magazines together. Making something stupid and crafty together and making jokes. Swapping goofy pictures of each other grafted into things. Making each other e-books with funny stories and pictures. Going on a drive to find abandoned barns or factories and walk through them. Buying me my favourite gin and strawberries and playing a rediculous board game. Having them climb a tree for me to get me a flower. Showing me their favourite books or journals and telling me why. Talking to me for hours, late at night.

I think understanding that people have different ideas about what is intimate and what is romantic (like the five love languages test, for example) is a good thing. I like people who like touch and quality time, because I'm good at giving that. I love getting acts of service the most. So fixing my bike will be seen as far more swoony and romantic than a gift or a love poem.

But that's also what dating is for, right? Finding these things out to see if you are suited for a relationship!

Kinda why I like taking things slow in the beginning, to find these things out....!

[princessbelle]

I've been following this thread and trying hard to understand exactly what to post about that is related to the core subject. It is very interesting and the words in here are so good to hear. I am yearning for deep discussions and i thank the OP for bringing light to a deep subject.

I guess though i'm having a blond moment and not exactly sure what to post about, however i want to be a part of this discussion so i'm gonna give it a try...

Regarding relationships and who seems to fall in the category of monogamy faster, butch vs. femme; I find it totally depends on the individual and i have not actually seen a trend, in my life anyway.

Sometimes, it was me that jumped in too fast and sometimes it was a partner that seemed to push. The main point i would like to make is this....everyone has different ideas of what a "relationship" or "dating" should be. When i meet someone new and we date, to me that it is just dating. Dating is dating. Discussion can be made at some point on the monogamy part. This is the time we try each other out, the mental connection, culturally, spiritually, physically. Even if i am monogamous, it's not set in stone i will be there long term, forever type stuff. Again, this is *my* definition of dating.

This is where i feel at least in some of my past relationships, communicated or not, it has been a real problem. Some will see monogamous dating is "forever and a day" some won't. I see it just as dating and that's it. Thankfully, a few of my exes agreed with that and we continue to be friends, no matter which of us broke it off. But, i've found that even if you discuss this at the beginning, there are problems later if the other person does not share your views 100%. You can't know for sure you want to spend the rest of your life with someone until you've known them a long time and been around them a lot. That's how i feel anyway.

Bottom line for me Communication is the key. Discussing what dating means specifically, monogamously or not, deeply with each party involved will make it easier in the end, if there is one.

[Martina]

I hate romance. Always have. It leaves me flat, and then I feel guilty. I endure romantic gestures, I guess. I do like pizza and documentary films though.

I read this thread and realized how much I do not want a relationship at this point in my life. I wonder if I ever will again.

I am truly grateful for the friends and beloved ex's in my life who fit me like an old glove. If I didn't have them, I'd be alone. I seriously could not go through all that right now. I love being single. I love home-ownership (new to me). I love the freedom of my own time and my own space.

[imperfect_cupcake]

To answer a question

A kinder egg is a chocolate egg with a toy inside that has to be built. I LOVE them!!
I forgot that the U.S. Banned them. So many of you won't know what one is.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Princess belle - it was originally thread to ask about how butches deal with dating differences in the beginning of things. Some things can seem on the surface as insurmountable, but I know from experience that if I'm actually really interested in getting to know someone, I'm willing to *try* to work around some things if I can. I think some people are worth the effort.

It's turned into ask everyone how they deal with differences in dating at the beginning. Which is great.

Dapper had a hypothesis. Not sure how that's working out, but yet to be seen.

So far the differences that can throw people are:

When to be monogamous
When to be romantic
What is romantic
How/when to have discussions about the above
What does dating mean

[Shystonefem]

Originally Posted by SleepyButch

Please don't say that you were stupid. It's easy to get caught up in the moments like you described. A lot of crave attention and it comes in many forms. Some people express love differently. As I mentioned in an earlier post euphoria can be a bitch! We all make mistakes. It's what we do with them after we realized that we made them that counts.

No, I was an idiot. I really believed, at the time, that she just wanted me that much. She wanted the idea of me and never really wanted "me". It wasn't euphoria, I just thought that she really loved me. And, when you get into something like that, the "obsession" doesn't go away easil tty. I am still getting calls, emails, etc....

[Kelt]

I think the last few posts pretty much sum up what I was getting at with romance. It's a spectrum from zero to sixty.

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy

When what I'd really be meaning is; I'm showing interest and wanting to make a good impression. (NOT asking for sex or proposing marriage though)

If I'm head over heels I'll fix your car, because like the socks in the night, it's how I show genuine caring.

Princessbelle is right that communication is key because there are so many ways to get things wrong; or right but you just don't know it.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

Princess belle - it was originally thread to ask about how butches deal with dating differences in the beginning of things. Some things can seem on the surface as insurmountable, but I know from experience that if I'm actually really interested in getting to know someone, I'm willing to *try* to work around some things if I can. I think some people are worth the effort.

It's turned into ask everyone how they deal with differences in dating at the beginning. Which is great.

Dapper had a hypothesis. Not sure how that's working out, but yet to be seen.

So far the differences that can throw people are:

When to be monogamous
When to be romantic
What is romantic
How/when to have discussions about the above
What does dating mean

Thank you for the clarification. I hope i was in line with my post.

And a note on the romantic.....i will NEVER get enough of that, personally. It's what ties my shoelaces into knots (in a good way). And, yeah i believe dating means different things to different people. Being online it's hard to start that walk and be in total agreement.

All of it boils down to communication, communication, communication.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Fair enough, kelt - I personally would like someone to show interest by talking to me, telling me stories from their life and making me laugh. And showing interest in my stories. Flowers, to me, on a first date... Trying too hard? Making a formal statement that kind of makes me uncomfortable? I would like to think that before the first date we've had a couple pre-dates (just going for coffee or a beer and nachos) and talking. And perhaps we've had a couple phone calls and email exchanges before a first date. By then, I would like to think, the person has some idea that

A) I'm quite informal and too much formality makes me uncomfortable and stiff and I kind of feel like I'm playing a role rather than being a person. I'd like to think that flowers aren't nessecary to impress me or show interest, and taking me to a fancy restaurant where I can't laugh loud or show you pictures of hilarious dildos on my phone will make me feel out of place.

B) that you feel comfortable taking me to a pub with a good burger, a quiet corner and we talk and laugh for a few hours. Maybe you have bought me a little leggo kit instead of flowers and we can build it at the table. Perhaps we change to go to a different late pub after the dinner and make fun of people's shoes. I'm dressed up nicely.

I like a LOT of conversation and sharing of opinions and stories, so generally people have a pretty good idea of a first date, or they allow me to choose the place. Which I rather like. The second date they usually give me an idea or choice of a couple of things and I pick one. Again it will be informal and a place we can talk. I'm all about the talking. That way we can find out a lot about these things.

I generally don't do "activities" together as in going to the theatre or something until after we've had sex at least once.

But I'll have told someone that too. I come with very open and very straight forwardly stated instructions and I have an excellent customer service centre that fields enquires in great detail. I also come with a sheet of colourful diagrams for assembly.