What attracts you to Ftms ......

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by Gemme

[B][SIZE="3"][COLOR="yellowgreen"]

Okay. I can give you that. I see that. The literal versus figurative analogy. A lot of wires can get crossed when different sides are coming from difference perspectives and I totally get this.

BUT

My panties get into an absolute snarl when it feels like someone is saying 'you are wrong' instead of 'that isn't for me and this is why'. The 'daydreaming' comment feels dismissive to me, like someone's ideal isn't "real enough" for someone else who is not involved in their life at all and not affected by their life choices at all.

Why can't that role be someone's REAL world? Why must the weight of history rest on the shoulders of some girl or guy who just wants to make their partner fucking dinner and do it in an apron and maybe in heels and probably with some rouge on?

The daydreaming remark wasn't meant to be dismissive. It was meant to be what it is...daydreaming. If we are going to debate whether or not most of us could go back to the 1950s and live as we live today or actually, how it has been represented, actually live a better, more mannerly, more pleasant life or however anyone wants to spin it, i truly do challenge that.

It's the romanticizing and the thought that things were better for everyone back then, attitude that gets MY panties into an absolute snarl.

I don't think anyone here cares how anyone lives their lives or has a relationship. That is not what this discussion is about, as far as i see. What ruffles some of us is the notion that "then" was better. It wasn't. At least it wasn't for women, minorities and especially not better for gays.

This has nothing to do with whether someone chooses to work or not, or wear an apron or whatever. FAR from it. It is about logistics, where we are now and where we came from and where MANY of us never want to go back to.

[BullDog]

Gemme, no one has told you how to have a relationship.

No one.

It is very dangerous to white wash history. We are about to have a Presidential election where our rights could take us back to the 1950s and earlier. I am never going to ignore any of that. I didn't take issue with anyone's relationship. What I have issue with is white washing history.

And if people want to make male the superior in their relationship they can, but if people are going to tie that to some wonderful mystical past when things were so much better I will challenge that. And I will continue to challenge male being superior as the default in society.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme, no one has told you how to have a relationship.

No one.

It is very dangerous to white wash history. We are about to have a Presidential election where our rights could take us back to the 1950s and earlier. I am never going to ignore any of that. I didn't take issue with anyone's relationship. What I have issue with is white washing history.

And if people want to make male the superior in their relationship they can, but if people are going to tie that to some wonderful mystical past when things were so much better I will challenge that. And I will continue to challenge male being superior as the default in society.

PMing you as well.

[BullDog]

Gemme you can PM me anytime but you can't just come in here and say a bunch of stuff and then tell us to take it to private.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme you can PM me anytime but you can't just come in here and say a bunch of stuff and then tell us to take it to private.

I just want to minimize my role in derailing the thread any further, Bully. I honestly don't think I can say things any differently. It seems to be a case of headbutting and that's frustrating for everyone.

[Medusa]

Here's what needs to happen, folks:

1. This thread appears to have meandered into a completely different area than "What attracts you to FtMs...". While threads will do that, I think that the discussion being had here is valuable enough to warrant it's own thread so that folks can continue teasing this apart without derailing the folks who would like to engage in more light-hearted banter.

2. This discussion feels very similar to me as the one did when the whole "Gor-Daddy" thing came up. Much like that conversation, I want to remind folks that you do not get to police other people's kink. You don't get to label what someone else finds sexy as "wrong". It may indeed *be* wrong but this is where we have to accept that desire is a really convoluted thing and that its intersections are often going to bump up against things that are made of -isms.

3. I think it is super valuable to dismantle desire for ourselves. If you want to tease apart why something doesn't work for you, then do that with language that is thoughtful and sincere. Refrain from jabs that make you look like an asshole because the conversation cannot happen if people keep trying to "win" rather than listen.

4. The very nature of the Butch/Femme dynamic is seen as sexist, racist, and homophobic by many folks. Think back to discussions in your Feminism circles where you may have heard those shitty diatribes about how Butches "just want to be men" or how Femmes "are really straight women looking to get their pussy licked". Does it feel at all familiar to folks that we are now turning inward on other dynamics that feel "wrong" to us but that other people have found shelter in?
I'm not saying that there aren't dynamics out there that are really fucked up. There are. There are dynamics out there that deserve a ton of discussion. My point is that I would like to see that discussion happen thoughtfully without all the other bullshit. (you know, that bullshit where we waggle our fingers at someone else's way of doing their desire).

5. As far as individual desire goes, I'm a huge fan of the motto "If you aren't fucking me, paying my bills, or living in my house, you don't get to have an opinion on what I do."

6. With the above being said, if you are up on a Feminist website spouting some bullshit about Gor-Daddies and how awesome it is when Femmes turn into Stepford Pussies or Butches are only Butch when they are climbing the "Machismo Dick Tower", expect to have that shit dragged out into the daylight and picked at.

The point of all this is y'all need to treat each other better.
Make your point as if the person you are talking to is across the table from you at the Reunion.

And in the immortal words of Ozzy, "I love you all but you're all fucking mad."

Thanks,
Angie

[Darbonaire]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Here's what needs to happen, folks:

1. This thread appears to have meandered into a completely different area than "What attracts you to FtMs...". While threads will do that, I think that the discussion being had here is valuable enough to warrant it's own thread so that folks can continue teasing this apart without derailing the folks who would like to engage in more light-hearted banter.

2. This discussion feels very similar to me as the one did when the whole "Gor-Daddy" thing came up. Much like that conversation, I want to remind folks that you do not get to police other people's kink. You don't get to label what someone else finds sexy as "wrong". It may indeed *be* wrong but this is where we have to accept that desire is a really convoluted thing and that its intersections are often going to bump up against things that are made of -isms.

3. I think it is super valuable to dismantle desire for ourselves. If you want to tease apart why something doesn't work for you, then do that with language that is thoughtful and sincere. Refrain from jabs that make you look like an asshole because the conversation cannot happen if people keep trying to "win" rather than listen.

4. The very nature of the Butch/Femme dynamic is seen as sexist, racist, and homophobic by many folks. Think back to discussions in your Feminism circles where you may have heard those shitty diatribes about how Butches "just want to be men" or how Femmes "are really straight women looking to get their pussy licked". Does it feel at all familiar to folks that we are now turning inward on other dynamics that feel "wrong" to us but that other people have found shelter in?
I'm not saying that there aren't dynamics out there that are really fucked up. There are. There are dynamics out there that deserve a ton of discussion. My point is that I would like to see that discussion happen thoughtfully without all the other bullshit. (you know, that bullshit where we waggle our fingers at someone else's way of doing their desire).

5. As far as individual desire goes, I'm a huge fan of the motto "If you aren't fucking me, paying my bills, or living in my house, you don't get to have an opinion on what I do."

6. With the above being said, if you are up on a Feminist website spouting some bullshit about Gor-Daddies and how awesome it is when Femmes turn into Stepford Pussies or Butches are only Butch when they are climbing the "Machismo Dick Tower", expect to have that shit dragged out into the daylight and picked at.

The point of all this is y'all need to treat each other better.
Make your point as if the person you are talking to is across the table from you at the Reunion.

And in the immortal words of Ozzy, "I love you all but you're all fucking mad."

Thanks,
Angie

Thank you !

[DMW]

I just love these two. I hope that the honeymooners are not considered x-rated or something.. Also, people can choose whether or not they wanna watch the show. Just a link. Heck Alice is awesome. Crazy Ralph says..."Baby, you're the greatest" and also, to the moon Alice...when he doesn't understand her.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frbp2O6I2go"]The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 1/3 - YouTube[/nomedia]

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI8Elpu18uU"]The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 2/3 - YouTube[/nomedia]

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRG62QFGcKM"]The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 3/3 - YouTube[/nomedia]

This is when Alice goes and gets a job and Ralph can't deal with her not at home. He has no idea how much work it is for her to do all that she does.
It is great. I think the women that have known me...eh...would probably say...i can be a little too much like Ralph sometimes.
Probably sometimes too much. Hell, maybe i am giving myself too much credit. Would have to ask the women that have lived with me really to get a real idea. Would be nice to hear them critique this post ....from a distance...and in bits.
Damn he is like a child...i don't think i was that bad????

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by DMW

I just love these two. I hope that the honeymooners are not considered x-rated or something.. Also, people can choose whether or not they wanna watch the show. Just a link. Heck Alice is awesome. Crazy Ralph says..."Baby, you're the greatest" and also, to the moon Alice...when he doesn't understand her.
The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 1/3 - YouTube

The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 2/3 - YouTube

The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 3/3 - YouTube

This is when Alice goes and gets a job and Ralph can't deal with her not at home. He has no idea how much work it is for her to do all that she does.
It is great. I think the women that have known me...eh...would probably say...i can be a little too much like Ralph sometimes.
Probably sometimes too much. Hell, maybe i am giving myself too much credit. Would have to ask the women that have lived with me really to get a real idea. Would be nice to hear them critique this post ....from a distance...and in bits.

You do realize that the *to the moon* was a physical threat to punch her lights out, not when he didn't understand her but when he didn't agree with her. ? That it was perfectly acceptable for a man to do that to a woman back then?



Just wondering.